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E11

Depressing statistics

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E11

I did some quick and dirty research on my odds of ever finding a girlfriend. The numbers don't look good.

HSV - I have type 1 orally. Only 30% of women my age (25 to 29) have it [1]. The age group in [1] that I am referring to is the 16 to 18 year old age group, since that study was prepared in 2000.

Height - women don't like men to be their height or shorter. I'm only eligible for 50% of available women due to my height [2], assuming that at least 3 inches height difference is required.

Income - I'm making below median income [3], which means at least 50% of people are better than me. I'll overestimate my chances as 50%.

Snoring - I have a snoring problem. According to a poll [4], at least 36% of people would rather sleep with someone who doesn't snore than a "good lover" who did. Therefore, 64% of people might possibly consider me, an overestimate since my snoring is worse than at least 50% of people.

Appearance - I'm in the bottom 25% of humans in terms of appearance, with asymmetrical features and bad, acne prone skin.

Multiplying all the rates together, I would only be eligible for 1.2% of all women, even without considering personality compatibility, common interests, etc.

In Canada, there are ~3349300 women between 20 and 35 years old [5], so about 40000 women might possibly consider me in the entire country.

Pretty dismal odds, but workable right? Wrong. There are ~3437200 men in the same age group in the country. That's 88000 more than the number of women. Or in other words, the bottom 2.5% of men don't get anyone.

Since the calculations above showed that I'm in the bottom 1.2%, I'm guaranteed to not have someone.

I'm kind of glad that I'm never more than 30 meters away from certain death.

[1] http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=149555

[2] http://www.solvedating.com/american-singles-height.html

[3] http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quotidien/080501/dq080501a-eng.htm

[4] http://www.thestar.com/article/153613

[5] http://www40.statcan.gc.ca/l01/cst01/demo10a-eng.htm

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Butterfly of the Moment

wow, i'm sorry darling but ummm...hsv1 orally is more accepted than any other std that I know of.....did you factor in the good qualities that people like about you...how about the fact that maybe you are a faithful partner, caring, you're a good person to talk to, you can play 2 instruments whatever, etc....my depressing statistic is: I have oral and genital herpes and hpv...all from the last 2 guys I was with...I know men find me attractive and I've never had problems meeting guys but I find my appearance to be false advertisement considering my sexual health situation...sometimes. I snore too, but infrequently and lightly haha...I just graduated from college but my income is deplorable...I work minimum wage b/c I can't find a job...I've applied at 25 places in 2 months time and I'm still looking. Things about me I think are sweet and amazing and make me unique are things people will never get to see when they focus on stds...you see darling I still managed to find someone that loves me for me and for no other reason and this relationship is on a rocky ride so I could very well be on the market soon. And that market place is on condemned grounds...it's better to try to look on the bright side and if people knew me they would know that it's not easy at times...

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ntdc

Your biggest hindrance to finding someone is your attitude

The only statistic that's important is that if you continue to have a negative humorless attitude there is a 100% chance you wont find anyone. Would you be interested in a woman with the same miserable attitude, no you would think shes got nothing going on for herself.

It does not matter how you look if you act like you have it going on women are going to respond to that. I'll give you some examples.

ellen_young-4.jpg

This is a picture of Angus Young and his wife. He is 5'3 and not attractive by anyone's standards. I'd imagine hes probably got a few STDs as well (AC/DC wrote at least 2 songs about getting STDs). They were married before the band achieved mainstream success. As he puts it "when I had nothing but my boots".

dangerfield.jpg

Rodney Dangerfield is a guy who made feeling sorry for himself into a career!

This girl 5191.jpg

used to married to THIS guy

mick-jagger.jpg

And certaintly Jerri Hall wasn't the first or last model thats been hooked up

with Mick Jagger.

I could list even more ugly actors, comedians and rock stars that scored incredibly hot wives or girlfriends.

The fact is it is all about attitude and developing something that makes you attractive. A talent or personality that makes you stand out of the crowd. These are things you can develop. Such as sense of humor, or talent like music or magic or something. As you get better at it your confidence will improve and you will find yourself able to attact more women.

Hell even if you just work out really hard and dress well you will realize more women start looking at you because you look better and have tons more confidence.

HSV - I have type 1 orally. Only 30% of women my age (25 to 29) have it [1]. The age group in [1] that I am referring to is the 16 to 18 year old age group, since that study was prepared in 2000.

Go after older women then :-D

You can always take acyclovir or valtrex for suppression of symptoms if you get frequent outbreaks.

Height - women don't like men to be their height or shorter. I'm only eligible for 50% of available women due to my height [2], assuming that at least 3 inches height difference is required.

Not as important as you would think (unless you liek really tall women ) , angus young, tom cruise, michael j fox and many other short dudes have gone on to get consistantly great looking women.

Income - I'm making below median income [3], which means at least 50% of people are better than me. I'll overestimate my chances as 50%.

Well there is something you can improve easily. Go to school work hard, get a good job, start a business,etc..

Snoring - I have a snoring problem. According to a poll [4], at least 36% of people would rather sleep with someone who doesn't snore than a "good lover" who did. Therefore, 64% of people might possibly consider me, an overestimate since my snoring is worse than at least 50% of people.

Ehh you'd be surprised this is not a big deal.Anyway these days there are many treatments for snoring including OTC nose strips and surgeries.

Appearance - I'm in the bottom 25% of humans in terms of appearance, with asymmetrical features and bad, acne prone skin.

So go see a dermatologist and get your acne cleared up. Not sure how old you are but most acne goes away in the mid 20s except for some very unlucky people like myself.

Pretty dismal odds, but workable right? Wrong. There are ~3437200 men in the same age group in the country. That's 88000 more than the number of women. Or in other words, the bottom 2.5% of men don't get anyone.

Hey but youa re just talking about canada, some places women outnumber men. Maybe you should try to get an overseas job like engilsh teacher in one of those palces.

Since the calculations above showed that I'm in the bottom 1.2%, I'm guaranteed to not have someone.

You sure wont with that shitty attitude.

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Guest Seatortuga

LOL NTDC.

Ok, I assure you, I am not drop dead gorgeous nor do I make a lot of money. I am a lady, but I am also 5'2''. I know guys like short girls,but I would love to have the lean,lanky,model's figure(like my 5'10'' sister).

I snore like a "wildebeast" when I get drunk. Yes, an ex called me a wildebeast. I am also a 5'2'' 120lbs lady. I am a very petite wildebeast lol!

My good friend and I had a pretty lengthy debate over the differences between men and women the other night. Not a very serious debate, we were fishing late at night after having spent the WHOLE day drinking. After we decided to haul our drunk selves to our camp site (We were camping at a state park), I proceeded to snore....like a wildebeast. This friend is actually an ex of mine and he still loves me with herpes and snoring.

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Now18

My last boyfriend was only 1 inch taller than me, gave me HSV-2, and only made $35,000 a year but I fell for him because he was extremely charming and just an interesting person to be around.

My boyfriend before that was 1 inch shorter than me, had skin problems/was not attractive, and did not have a job while in school... so he was always broke. I was attracted to him because we were friends so long that we formed a bond.

As a girl, I generally look for intelligence, a good sense of humor, and average to cute looks (am wary of very hot guys). I do not care at all about income or height.

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luckyCat

Im 5,6', have HSV 2, asthma, an arthritic hip, a chronic pinched nerve condition in my neck and wild, out of control hair...Im also slightly overweight with spider veins on my thighs and Im only 38! I do make good money and own my own apartment, but I would have no problem dating a guy who made less than me providing I found him attractive (this potential doesnt always follow standard views of what is handsome) we shared good chemistry, he treated me with respect, made me laugh and was passionate about his hobbies and/or creating and shaping a life for himself that made him happy. Being a good kisser always helps.

Theres lots of times I dont feel good about my looks + the fact that I have genital herpes, but I still try to make sure I do my catwalk strut when I walk down the street.

Sometimes, just the way you handle yourself can make all the difference.

Try not to think so much.

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talesofagirl

And just by herpes statistics, you are not thinking clearly. Since 2000, a large number of those 16 to 18 year-olds have caught type 1 (and possibly type 2). The percentage has risen by now.

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gotitsowhat

I know how you feel...

I think that, for all of us, there are times when we count our deficits and feel despair. I know that I often lack confidence because of my age, my weight and my many years of being a recluse.

And I won't try to argue with your "statistical study" which was really just a catalog of your own personal lack of confidence set against a very competitive society's overblown media saturated standards. I understand, believe me. I'm an old fat chick in California for god's sake. I know the meaning of loneliness, alienation and despair.

BUT...people are NOT statistics!!! Statistics are numbers that apply to groups of people, not to the individual. Life is like a casino; you can predict the odds on various games but no one ever knows who is going to win and who is going to lose.

To illustrate my point, an anecdote:

A few years ago, someone I knew was driving slowly through the misty early morning streets of his hometown, Langley, Virginia. He was driving his brand new car from the dealer where he had just bought it for cash to the insurance company where he was going to get his new car insured, a distance of 2 blocks. It was just after 6:00 AM, a quiet Saturday morning in a small town.

Suddenly, out of the mist, he saw an elephant stampeding toward him and his car. The elephant was running fast, but it slowed as it reached his car. The elephant was out of breath, stomping and snorting and it needed a rest (Excess weight is a bitch!). It spotted his car and lumbered toward it. The poor guy managed to crawl out of the car just as the elephant sat on his car and crushed it flat like a tin can waiting to be recycled.

Now, I ask you, what are the odds of an elephant sitting on your brand new, just purchased, uninsured car in Langley, Virginia at dawn on a quiet misty Saturday morning?(Last I heard, the guy was suing the circus that had lost the elephant while unloading it from a railroad car the next town over.)

If everyone here wants to go along with this, we could all post stories here like the ones I just did, stories of situations we have all lived through and observed in which the things that happened were way against all odds and could never have been predicted. Life is full of this stuff.

PEOPLE ARE NOT STATISTICS.

P.S. ntdc, I loved your post!

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E11

Thanks everyone. But this reply is going to sound really negative. I need to vent and brood today.

wow, i'm sorry darling but ummm...hsv1 orally is more accepted than any other std that I know of.....

I don't know about that. The reason it seems that way is most people don't know what the hell cold sores are. Now that I do know, it just feels really nasty. I'd have to list all the risks before I even kiss someone... 1) It'll spread even when sores aren't present, 2) If you get it, you'll have to deal with all this, including not being able to kiss or give oral, 3) It can infect your eye, 4) It can kill babies rarely, 5) You might be prone to nasty outbreaks, 6) It's incurable. When the information is all listed, it sounds so nasty.

did you factor in the good qualities that people like about you...how about the fact that maybe you are a faithful partner, caring, you're a good person to talk to, you can play 2 instruments whatever, etc....my depressing statistic is: I have oral and genital herpes and hpv...all from the last 2 guys I was with...I know men find me attractive and I've never had problems meeting guys but I find my appearance to be false advertisement considering my sexual health situation...sometimes.

I don't think there is much good about me to really compensate for all this other crap. Most people think I can be a funny guy and they like that, but that's mainly because I limit my interaction with people so that I always seem to have something new and interesting to say. In reality I have very little material to work with, so it's all an illusion.

I completely understand the whole false advertising thing. I can't bring myself to ask anyone out because it seems like knowingly selling a defective product. "Oh, you asked me out knowing that you can't kiss or sleep with me, what the hell are you trying to peddle here?" is what I'm afraid of hearing.

I snore too, but infrequently and lightly haha...I just graduated from college but my income is deplorable...I work minimum wage b/c I can't find a job...I've applied at 25 places in 2 months time and I'm still looking. Things about me I think are sweet and amazing and make me unique are things people will never get to see when they focus on stds...you see darling I still managed to find someone that loves me for me and for no other reason and this relationship is on a rocky ride so I could very well be on the market soon. And that market place is on condemned grounds...it's better to try to look on the bright side and if people knew me they would know that it's not easy at times...

In the last year I've not been able to see the bright side of anything. I don't really know what to do. HSV is incurable, three different doctors and my own research have said there's not much they can do for the severe snoring problem (which got me banned from sharing hotel rooms, for crying out loud), the bad skin is not going away even after several courses of damaging medications and diet changes and the job situation is stuck for now, especially with the recent economic downturn. I just can't see what I can do to actually compensate for all that.

The only statistic that's important is that if you continue to have a negative humorless attitude there is a 100% chance you wont find anyone. Would you be interested in a woman with the same miserable attitude, no you would think shes got nothing going on for herself.

I guess the thing I'm stuck on is could attitude make up for things I can't change? I can't kiss without a risk of giving someone a disease, and because so few people know the true nature of cold sores, once I tell them, it'll not go over well. I can't share a bed with someone without keeping them up at night. I can't stop acne and acne scars from appearing on my face. As far as I know, each of those traits while not deal breakers do take points off. Combined together, I don't think I'd pass the test.

[snip a few examples]

I could list even more ugly actors, comedians and rock stars that scored incredibly hot wives or girlfriends.

It's not necessarily appropriate to use famous celebrities as examples. Very few people are actually famous, and their lives are so far removed from regular people's lives that it's impossible to compare.

The fact is it is all about attitude and developing something that makes you attractive. A talent or personality that makes you stand out of the crowd. These are things you can develop. Such as sense of humor, or talent like music or magic or something. As you get better at it your confidence will improve and you will find yourself able to attact more women.

Hell even if you just work out really hard and dress well you will realize more women start looking at you because you look better and have tons more confidence.

I can't sing or compose music. I can't even play an instrument. People train since they were children to develop those skills. I'm too old to start.

Working out is actually a great idea and I wish I could do it but I have an allergic reaction to body heat that makes it really hard to exercise. My entire body gets swollen in hives when I do that. I do a lot of low intensity exercise to stay healthy, but anything vigorous is impossible.

Not as important as you would think (unless you liek really tall women ) , angus young, tom cruise, michael j fox and many other short dudes have gone on to get consistantly great looking women.

Well there is something you can improve easily. Go to school work hard, get a good job, start a business,etc..

Those again are all famous people and I'm not famous. :(

As for school, I wish I could do it all over again. They won't let me go back to get another engineering degree because I already have one. I chose my field really poorly though, it was one I enjoyed and is actually beneficial for people since it makes medical diagnostics much easier. The problem is that you have to be a superstar to get any money in this specialty. I've since found out I'm not that person, which is why I'm stuck in my current situation. If I could do it over again, I'd specialize in a field that's more mundane but accessible to mere mortals, like electrical engineering or something like that. It's just that I can't enroll in those courses and it's not something you can efficiently self study (it takes a fair amount of lab equipment and project work to become competent).

I'd love to start a business, but I need to invent something first. It's not easy. The stuff I've tried to make doesn't work properly even if it seems like a great idea on paper.

Ehh you'd be surprised this is not a big deal.Anyway these days there are many treatments for snoring including OTC nose strips and surgeries.

It's really bad. I can't even share a hotel room with people. I've been to three different doctors and none produced a solution that would help me. Surgery is not effective [1-6].

So go see a dermatologist and get your acne cleared up. Not sure how old you are but most acne goes away in the mid 20s except for some very unlucky people like myself.

What makes you think I didn't go see a dermatologist? After 3 courses of accutane and major diet changes, I still have it. And I'm pretty much past the mid 20s now. It's not going away.

Hey but youa re just talking about canada, some places women outnumber men. Maybe you should try to get an overseas job like engilsh teacher in one of those palces.

It's possible. However, those teaching contracts eventually end and afterwards they don't really count for much on a resume. A lot of these also go to Asian countries, and they have even fewer women than Canada (for example, China [7] or Korea [8]).

You sure wont with that shitty attitude.

Well, can it actually compensate for all these other factors? I don't know.

I snore like a "wildebeast" when I get drunk. Yes, an ex called me a wildebeast. I am also a 5'2'' 120lbs lady. I am a very petite wildebeast lol!

A lot of people snore when they're drunk or when they have fat in their airways. Those are really easy to fix (don't drink, don't smoke and keep a lean body weight). I snore even though I don't drink, smoke and am a bit underweight. It's basically down to my lifelong respiratory problems and how it has affected the shape of my airways.

As a girl, I generally look for intelligence, a good sense of humor, and average to cute looks (am wary of very hot guys). I do not care at all about income or height.

I would love to even be average looking. But my face is pretty messed up.

Being a good kisser always helps.

Actually because of the HSV, I'm afraid of kissing. I'd have to explain all the risks beforehand and I really don't think anyone who thinks they don't have HSV would stick around after my explanation.

And just by herpes statistics, you are not thinking clearly. Since 2000, a large number of those 16 to 18 year-olds have caught type 1 (and possibly type 2). The percentage has risen by now.

There actually aren't any statistics for the same age group now, so I set up a simulation. Assuming 30% initially infected, completely random couplings with a 10% transmission rate* for discordant couples per year, and an average of 9 relationships since 2000, the percentage of infected only goes up to 50%. The same results were obtained after running this simulation 10 times with different random couplings. This makes the percentage I calculated above to be 2%, which is still very low.

* I could not find a transmission rate number for HSV-1 amongst discordant couples. This is estimated based on HSV-2 numbers from various links on the web.

** This model isn't going to be accurate, but it is a back of the envelope type calculation. I need to read up on statistical disease transmission modeling to get a proper estimate.

BUT...people are NOT statistics!!! Statistics are numbers that apply to groups of people, not to the individual. Life is like a casino; you can predict the odds on various games but no one ever knows who is going to win and who is going to lose.

I know that everyone has anecdotes. But statistics are a good way to quantitatively look at a situation. I've been unhappy and unable to do anything about my situation for the better part of the year but I never quantified it before to see what I'm up against.

I guess a) I needed to write all that out and B) I need to figure out what it all means.

[1] http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/121608016/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

[2] http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=399322

[3] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19189776

[4] http://erj.ersjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/24/1/66

[5] http://www.chestjournal.org/content/129/1/81.abstract

[6] http://erj.ersjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/25/6/1044

[7] https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ch.html

[8] https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ks.html

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jericho
Well, can it actually compensate for all these other factors? I don't know.

Attitude can make up for everything you described. And remember, you only need one woman, not thousands.

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Butterfly of the Moment

I'm sorry that times are rough being you....but are you saying that in your whole life before herpes nobody every had a crush on you and you've never kissed a girl? How did you get the virus in the first place unless you got it when you were a small child? I mean it is unlikely a girl has never liked you or will never like you again....And I would definately say having herpes type 1 orally can be lived with b/c YOU would be careful about not transmitting it to anyone else...(the reason the virus spreads so much is because people don't know they have it or they don't give a sh*t about transmitting it) but you seem to be focusing on only what you can offer someone sexually concerning the risks of passing on one of the most common viruses in the world...take your valtrex and stay healthy and I would say this is the least of your problems...i know tons of people with coldsores and yeah...they may not technically consider it herpes, they stilll would much rather have it on their lips occasionally than on their genitals. Would you feel better if you were insanely gorgeous and made a ton of money but you still had type 1 herpes....if I only had type 1 orally i probably wouldn't even be on this website honestly because when people talk about "ew that person has herpes!" they're talking about the genital variety. I would guess that you would be careful and do what you had to not to pass the virus on. Have you tried pro-active solution for your acne? And how old are you?....more than a couple people i know had bad acne until they reached their 20s....as for killing baby thing, about 1/4 of women who give birth have genital herpes...the baby is safe inside the womb (unless the woman contracts the disease DURING pregnancy) and it is only until they reach the birth canal that they are at risk and if a woman is having an outbreak, then they must get a c-section..., these risks are more prone to people that DON'T KNOW they have the virus.

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gotitsowhat

Most people in no America

have the cold sore virus, hsv1. I doubt if you have to do anything except not kiss when you are having an outbreak.

I do understand your statistics and your feelings. I am a fat lady and I live in an area that seems to be a demographic consisting entirely of young models and actresses. I know the odds of a man choosing an older fat lady over a young slim chick are miniscule. But, like the earlier poster said, you only need one. Just ONE. Surely there must be one kind, tolerant, wise person around for us!

About a positive attitude...it can't overcome everything, but it is a strong point in your favor if you can manage some kind of positive approach. How much difference it will make will vary from one situation to the next but it nearly always counts in your favor.

Years ago, when I was a young chick, I went steady with a man who had been born a Thalidomide baby (babies who were deformed in the womb by a drug that was later taken off the market). He had a flipper for one arm, a twisted leg and a hideously ugly, deformed twisted face. He had to walk on specially built metal crutches and braces and he drove a specially built car. This guy was, believe it or not, charming, fascinating, exciting, loads of fun and very, very sexy. By the way, when I was at that age, I was extremely good looking and had no trouble getting dates. I was close to being in love with this guy and at one point we discussed marriage.

So...why did I break up with such a great guy? I hope you'll believe me when I tell you that I broke up with him because HE HAD TOO MANY OTHER CHICKS!....Yeah, this guy just couldn't stick with one. True story.

I especially enjoyed his answer when I asked him if it had been hard for him in high school worrying about how he looked and if a girl would ever like him.

He said, "Hell no! I was so ugly that it never even occurred to me that I could get a date. So I was very relaxed about it all. Everyone else was agonizing about their love lives and I'd just listen and commisrerate. I learned a lot that way. People would get all upset because they got a pimple right before the big dance--I'd just laugh! I NEVER worried about my appearance because there was nothing I could do about it anyway. I was the only kid in the school who never worried about acne or out of fashion clothing. I dressed any way I wanted to...." Later, in college, he learned to be confident and charming with women. I don't know this for sure, but I have a feeling that herpes would not have phased him.

Yes, the odds are against some of us. And this is discouraging. I get down myself and I think it is good for you to post here. But don't allow some reasonable discouragment to make you give up on life. People who fight against the odds develop an energy that makes them attractive and interesting, at least to people who are interesting and worthwhile themselves.

Remember, MOST people have hsv1 either dormant or active. They live with it and you can, too. Don't make too big a deal out of it and maybe the women won't either. Just don't kiss if you are having an outbreak. Say, "I can't kiss you, I feel a cold sore coming on and they're contagious." That is the truth and it doesn't have to be a long detailed explanation about hsv/herpes/contagion. You could answer questions if asked but I don't think you need to explain much. Everybody has cold sores, even though many people do not realize that they are a form of herpes. Generally, they are not considered such a big deal. The social stigma is much worse for the genital type of herpes (the type I have).

I'm not a young chick, and would not be an appropriate date for you, but if I get to your area of the continent (Canada?) I would love to meet you and have a cup of coffee. I'll bet it would turn out that you have a lot going for you. Sometimes it's easy to forget that in our overly competitive media saturated world.

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ntdc

My friend you can post all the statistics and citations you want but the fact is that I am right about your attitude and confidence being the major problem. No further proof is needed then the fact that women have posted on this thread in agreement with me. I guarantee if you go ask 100 women 99 have slept with , dated, or even married guys who were worse looking than you with more problems. Why? They had good personality, confidence they had a good rap, etc...

As for herpes you rant off a bunch of non-sense. Look if someone doesn't know what a cold sore is that is on them. You don't have to rattle of some horrifying statistics (most of which isn't likely or applicable) just say you have a cold sore..jeez..

Why did I post about celebrities? Don't be ridiculous you think I believe you will wake up tomorrow as the next mick jagger? come on. I posted about famous people because if I were to tell you about my friend "Fat Dave" who pulls tons of hot chicks you can't relate to that because you don't know him. The people I posted are well known so obviously you can have some frame of reference to what I'm talking about.

The people I talked about became successful in the same way anyone becomes a success at anything, they believed in themselves. I mentioned Rodney Dangerfield, ok he did comedy for 20 years before achieving any kind of success. Why would anyone continue to bang their head against a proverbial wall for 20 yrs unless they believed they could succeed. If he had you're attitude he would have gone "well only 0.000001% of funny people ever become a success at comedy so I have no chance of success so why even bother".

So how do you get confidence? Well you wont just wake up one morning and have it, and you can't really fake it either, in a way thats worse because people can tell when you fake it and it's pretty pathetic.

Best way to do it is to pick something and work at it. Set increemental goals for yourself and work on them you will find yourself gaining confidence which will translate to other areas in your life. It will help you even more if you make this goal something to improve yourself or set yourself apart from others.

I used music as an example and believe me you dont have to train from childhood. I picked up guitar as an adult. After about a year I could play or quickly learn most songs you would hear on the radio. Now after about 6 years I can compose my own songs.

You can focus on anything you want though. Even making meeting women something you can do to gain confidence. Remember anyone who has had a lot of success with women has had an equal greater amount of failures. The more you get out there the more success you are bound to have. You wont have any success sitting at home feeling sorry for yourself.

As for the job stuff, if your job sucks and you arent making money then find something else to do. You dont have go back to school really. I've told dozens of people this advise, if you are relatively smart and can solve problems and you know how to use a computer, you can easily be making 80-100k as a programmer. You dont really need to have a degree in CS to do it (sorry CS majors you wasted your money/time). If you have some patience you can learn it from books. Really anything you would learn in a CS major you can easily learn from books or the internet. Network engineers make a decent living as well and you really don't even need a degree to do it, I've heard CCNA's can make 150k or more. Realistically a lot of things are like that, I could give you a whole list of really succesfull people who do not have a university degree. It's not a total waste but to consider your major ruined your life, it really didnt you can just do something else.

Anyway to summarize yes I believe attitude can 100% make up for all the things you listed. Can a good attitude gaurantee success? No, can a bad one gaurantee failure, absolutely.

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ihaveherpes1and2

maybe i can help you with the skin issue. Have you tried Ro-Accutane ? i had acne for 6 years .... finally i went to a dermatologist and he recommended that i took ro-accutane. I took a 6 months course and now i have good skin !! i never thought itll be possible for me to have acne free skin. And then i got Herpes ... Good luck with your skin issues and i really do believe that a positive attitude is vital.

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ntdc

yes read above he indicates having undergone several courses of accutane. accutane is a serious drug with major side effects and if you are already depressed it is probably not a great idea to take it, there is some evidence use can lead to suicidal thoughts/actions.

It seems like dermatologists are prescribing it more and more now for less serious acne but I remember some years ago only people who looked like freddy krueger were given accutane due to side effects.

I had bad acne for my whole life. I had great success with a combination therapy of long-term tetracycline (antibiotics) and high concentration benzyol peroxide cream. However as soon as you stop using it the acne will come back

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E11
I'm sorry that times are rough being you....but are you saying that in your whole life before herpes nobody every had a crush on you and you've never kissed a girl? How did you get the virus in the first place unless you got it when you were a small child? I mean it is unlikely a girl has never liked you or will never like you again....

No, I've never kissed and I've never had anyone express an interest in me and have been turned down each time I expressed interest. And I don't stay invisible either and I don't get embarrassed doing crazy things, so it's not like people don't notice me. They do, they just haven't been interested. And I'm 27 by the way.

I don't know when I got infected, but I had my first cold sore when I was in middle school. I didn't know it was HSV or about asymptomatic shedding until last year, which is when I began to panic about it.

If people aren't interested before they find out I have HSV and I snore and I am not making that much cash, then what will they think when they do find that out?

Hell, I didn't know that I had HSV, or that I snored or that I'd make the amount I make until last year and I still didn't get anyone interested. I certainly didn't have a negative attitude back then!

And I would definately say having herpes type 1 orally can be lived with b/c YOU would be careful about not transmitting it to anyone else...(the reason the virus spreads so much is because people don't know they have it or they don't give a sh*t about transmitting it) but you seem to be focusing on only what you can offer someone sexually concerning the risks of passing on one of the most common viruses in the world...

I know it's really common. (Although I've never seen anyone with a cold sore and other people have flat out asked me what it was, which seems to imply that the people I encounter aren't likely to have it) The only problems are a) other people don't know anything about it and assume that they themselves are "clean" while I'm not and B) this is on top of everything else that's wrong with me.

No one expects perfection but everyone has standards.

if I only had type 1 orally i probably wouldn't even be on this website honestly because when people talk about "ew that person has herpes!" they're talking about the genital variety. I would guess that you would be careful and do what you had to not to pass the virus on. Have you tried pro-active solution for your acne? And how old are you?....more than a couple people i know had bad acne until they reached their 20s....as for killing baby thing, about 1/4 of women who give birth have genital herpes...the baby is safe inside the womb (unless the woman contracts the disease DURING pregnancy) and it is only until they reach the birth canal that they are at risk and if a woman is having an outbreak, then they must get a c-section..., these risks are more prone to people that DON'T KNOW they have the virus.

Well, herpes is herpes, there's no getting around it. I just wish people knew more about it.

I've tried a lot of things for the acne, nothing worked. My nose is actually swollen and in pain from more zits right now. Damn.

As for the various risks of HSV, I like to be thorough. If I'm explaining a disease, I'll try to list everything I know in order to get informed consent and to make sure that they're educated so that they'll understand all the future risks that will go along with it.

have the cold sore virus, hsv1. I doubt if you have to do anything except not kiss when you are having an outbreak.

Asymptomatic shedding is the part that bothers me. It's the thing that makes people pause and see the true nature of this virus.

I do understand your statistics and your feelings. I am a fat lady and I live in an area that seems to be a demographic consisting entirely of young models and actresses. I know the odds of a man choosing an older fat lady over a young slim chick are miniscule. But, like the earlier poster said, you only need one. Just ONE. Surely there must be one kind, tolerant, wise person around for us!

When I was younger I often thought about that. It felt warm and fuzzy to think that I could actually find someone who would like me. Now, not so much. I don't think that she actually exists.

About a positive attitude...it can't overcome everything, but it is a strong point in your favor if you can manage some kind of positive approach. How much difference it will make will vary from one situation to the next but it nearly always counts in your favor.

I believe the math term for this is that attitude is "necessary but not sufficient". I'm struggling with whether I have the other factors that makes for sufficiency.

Years ago, when I was a young chick, I went steady with a man who had been born a Thalidomide baby (babies who were deformed in the womb by a drug that was later taken off the market). He had a flipper for one arm, a twisted leg and a hideously ugly, deformed twisted face. He had to walk on specially built metal crutches and braces and he drove a specially built car. This guy was, believe it or not, charming, fascinating, exciting, loads of fun and very, very sexy. By the way, when I was at that age, I was extremely good looking and had no trouble getting dates. I was close to being in love with this guy and at one point we discussed marriage.

Did he snore so badly all the time that you could never share a room with him? This is admittedly a rather self-centered viewpoint, but it is part of my "portfolio" of problems that someone needs to deal with.

In most things, there are tradeoffs. So if someone is really good looking but snores as much as I do, it may be an acceptable tradeoff for a woman because she likes the way he looks. Or if someone isn't good looking, but doesn't snore and is a really interesting person, then it's an acceptable tradeoff for his lack of looks. I don't presume to know anything about your relationship with him, but perhaps those tradeoffs were acceptable to you.

My calculations earlier implied that the tradeoffs with respect to me are probably too much.

Generally, they are not considered such a big deal. The social stigma is much worse for the genital type of herpes (the type I have).

From my point of view it's the same. OHSV-1 becomes GHSV-1 through oral sex. So that means it's exactly the same unless you want to refrain from oral. Which is simply another tradeoff.

I'm not a young chick, and would not be an appropriate date for you, but if I get to your area of the continent (Canada?) I would love to meet you and have a cup of coffee. I'll bet it would turn out that you have a lot going for you. Sometimes it's easy to forget that in our overly competitive media saturated world.

I live in Ottawa currently. If you met me in real life I wouldn't be what you'd expect from reading this. But I've laid out all my secrets here and I don't think I can keep up the act with someone who knows, which would make me rather unpleasant.

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E11
No further proof is needed then the fact that women have posted on this thread in agreement with me. I guarantee if you go ask 100 women 99 have slept with , dated, or even married guys who were worse looking than you with more problems. Why? They had good personality, confidence they had a good rap, etc...

I've noticed that people aren't always aware of what they'd actually do in any given situation, so what they say and what they do isn't always the same thing. It seems highly improbable that 99% of women have all gone with someone in the bottom percentile of the human race. My probability theory is a little rusty so I can't really verify that at this time.

As for herpes you rant off a bunch of non-sense. Look if someone doesn't know what a cold sore is that is on them. You don't have to rattle of some horrifying statistics (most of which isn't likely or applicable) just say you have a cold sore..jeez..

But isn't it most ethical to seek informed consent? That's the standard of consent for things like ANY scientific study involving humans. I'd say a relationship should be held to at least the same standard.

The people I talked about became successful in the same way anyone becomes a success at anything, they believed in themselves. I mentioned Rodney Dangerfield, ok he did comedy for 20 years before achieving any kind of success. Why would anyone continue to bang their head against a proverbial wall for 20 yrs unless they believed they could succeed. If he had you're attitude he would have gone "well only 0.000001% of funny people ever become a success at comedy so I have no chance of success so why even bother".

I understand your point. However, there is a lot of inherent selection bias to using those examples. This is just something I want to throw out, because it's unanswerable: How many people had a positive attitude but still failed compared to those who succeeded? That's the number I'd be interested in (for people with similar issues as me), because then the true odds could be estimated. It's not a number that can be quantified unless we had a 1984-esque surveillance and data-mining system in place. As unethical as that may be, the data gathered would be extremely fascinating.

Best way to do it is to pick something and work at it. Set increemental goals for yourself and work on them you will find yourself gaining confidence which will translate to other areas in your life. It will help you even more if you make this goal something to improve yourself or set yourself apart from others.

You know, I did at some point achieve a great deal of confidence, to the extent that I didn't care that my acne was untreatable or that I wasn't tall or good looking. I started asking women out. They turned me down but I was hopeful. That was before I discovered HSV or snoring, though. Ever since then, I haven't been optimistic anymore. There are only so many flaws that can be overlooked.

As for the job stuff, if your job sucks and you arent making money then find something else to do. You dont have go back to school really. I've told dozens of people this advise, if you are relatively smart and can solve problems and you know how to use a computer, you can easily be making 80-100k as a programmer. You dont really need to have a degree in CS to do it (sorry CS majors you wasted your money/time). If you have some patience you can learn it from books. Really anything you would learn in a CS major you can easily learn from books or the internet. Network engineers make a decent living as well and you really don't even need a degree to do it, I've heard CCNA's can make 150k or more. Realistically a lot of things are like that, I could give you a whole list of really succesfull people who do not have a university degree. It's not a total waste but to consider your major ruined your life, it really didnt you can just do something else.

Well, engineering - as opposed to computer programming - requires proper credentials. So if I, for example, wanted to design the control system for a nuclear reactor, I can't get hired unless I've taken the relevant coursework and have an engineering license. Companies will train their employees for this, but you need a mechanical or electrical engineering degree to be hired first. Additionally, you can't self-learn a lot of those things without access to equipment which a school provides. The type of work that I'm trying to move towards has very stringent entrance requirements, closer to being a doctor than to a computer programmer.

I could most likely get a programmer job if I wanted to, but there are various factors that are at work here that will keep me in this situation for a while which I won't get into. And I don't really want to get into the computer industry, 90% of the work is unsatisfying and the other 10% - truly extraordinary work in interesting industries - requires superstar-status to get into.

What I'm looking for are ways to use my existing expertise in an industry that I feel comfortable with. I sort of have that with my current job but it doesn't pay well.

And I disagree that CS majors (or anyone else who has a degree) wasted their time and money. If all they wanted was a job, then sure. But you're paying and spending time on an education. As negative as I may sound about my choice of specialty, I've enjoyed university immensely. I just wish I had chosen a different engineering field to specialize in.

Anyway to summarize yes I believe attitude can 100% make up for all the things you listed. Can a good attitude gaurantee success? No, can a bad one gaurantee failure, absolutely.

I just find it very difficult to have a good attitude when I don't even believe that my flaws - when put together - can be overlooked. That's why I really needed to talk about this.

maybe i can help you with the skin issue. Have you tried Ro-Accutane ? i had acne for 6 years .... finally i went to a dermatologist and he recommended that i took ro-accutane. I took a 6 months course and now i have good skin !! i never thought itll be possible for me to have acne free skin. And then i got Herpes ... Good luck with your skin issues and i really do believe that a positive attitude is vital.

I took Accutane several times. It didn't really help much. I've also tried long-term antibiotic and BP use, along with Retinol. None were successful and all it ever did was irritate my skin.

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ntdc

I wrote a big long post and accidently closed the window meaning to close something else instead. I cant be bothered to retype it now maybe later. Anyway my SO read this thread and agrees the problem is all in your head.

--edit

I basically changed my mind about retyping original post. It was very upbeat with a lot of advise from my own life which frankly is a lot like your (sans snoring but add in some rather worse problems) I have been extremely successful with women and none of those things has affected me in the least. Alll the stuff you listed is fairly superficial and believe me it doesnt bother most women as much as you would seem to think

I wont retype it because my SO brought up a point though you are arguing with people who just want to help you so why even bother. Your posts are really bizarre and you nitpick minor points while either missing completely or ignoring the message people are trying to give you. I don't know if you are intentionally trolling or you are just a negative kind of person.

You are so obsessed with calculating statistics of this and that none of that will help you get a date. The only help is to try it and keep trying until you succeed, rejection sucks at first but after a short time it doesn't mean anything. There is nothing which can tell your odds of success you just need to GET SOME BALLS, MAN THE FUCK UP, AND TRY. You keep trying until you succeed. If you want a date failure cannot be an option, period. No one is going to fall in your lap man or throw themselves at you it just doesnt happen that way evenn good looking guys have to work at it

As it stands you are right its unlikely any woman will want you but it has nothing to do with HSV, snoring, acne or being short. Its about being negative and down on yourself. If you dont even like yourself why do you think anyone else would like you?

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ihaveherpes1and2

sorry, RO-Accutane din work out for you. I had acne for 6 years, and believe me i know how frustrating and embarrassing it is. I truly believe stress is our skin biggest enemy, study have shown that STRESS and DEPRESSION will destroy our skin's natural ability to heal it self. In the end, it still goes back to being positive.

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Was23

E11, I started to chime in a few days ago but stopped since I was essentially just affirming most of the points made by ntdc, brainyblond, butterfly, jericho, now18 (and I'm sure I missed others). But you seem to be missing the essential point, and trying desparately to hold to your lousy opinion of yourself and your prospects.

Superficially, the best point you made in reply was the one about selection bias, but it shows that you missed the point NTDC and brainy were making: it's not that "less than perfect" looks gets you women, its that "less than perfect" looks are not an absolute barrier (and I'll throw out Kyle Lovett as another example). It probably *IS* the case that most people in "the bottom percentile of the human race" with respect to looks don't succeed, but that's because they let their preception of their prospects defeat themselves to the point that they present themselves as "sad sacks" to members of the opposite sex. (As you seem to be doing. I mean, really! Read your OP as if it were written by a woman: would you want to have such a depressing person as a girlfriend?)

Look, it's probably the case that you (and me, and NTDC, and others who have owned up to their imperfections here) are not going to strut into a bar and instantly turn the heads of all the women there, and so we're unlikely to be walking out 30 minutes later with the one or two hotties that are looking for their fantasy one-night stand. "Looks" just get you a fast track onto a woman's "interest list", but there are plenty of other doors. And it's much easier to get on the list than to move up.

If you read peoples descriptions of why they love their SO so much, its rare that physical appearance makes the list of major reasons. It's personality, good humor, interest, *confidence*, intelligence, consideration, responsibility, etc that are the big ones. These are the things that move you up on a woman's interest list. And conversely, if you read descriptions of why people ended relationships, it's personality defects or failings that are the big ones.

Anyway, its really up to you: you can let it defeat you, or just rise above it. Re-read brainyblonds post on her friend again for clues. It's 99.9% mental attitude. There are things that people look for in potential mates that we have no control over, but there are lots of things (and most of the important ones) that we can control.

(if its any consolation, I'll point out that there are likely plenty of acne-scarred, poor short awkward ugly women, so I'm pretty sure you'll eventually find your mate. And you know what? Some of them probably are beautiful people inside. So even if you continue to wallow in pity, the odds are pretty good that your will meet someone you will cherish. But even then, you'll be more likely to "land" them if you don't present yourself as a hopeless downer.)

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gotitsowhat

The exact truth: I have NEVER slept with a man

Did he snore so badly all the time that you could never share a room with him? This is admittedly a rather self-centered viewpoint, but it is part of my "portfolio" of problems that someone needs to deal with.

He did not snore. BUT I DO! BIG TIME.

I am 64 years old and I have never slept with a man. I lived with a man for two years from the time I was 18 until I was 20 and we were not able to share a room due to my snoring. I lived with another man from the time I was 22 until I was 25. Not only did the second live-in lover and I not share a bedroom but we lived in a big house and I slept in the ATTIC while he slept in the bedroom on the first floor! My snoring was so loud that we decided that we needed two stories between us.

Sleeping is very overrated, except for an occasional knock-out fun dream. What happens while two people are sleeping? Not much. They're unconscious!

I am not going to attempt to calculate the number of boyfriends I have had over the years (although those two guys were the only ones I lived with), for fear of shocking the younger folks on the board. I was with the guy who gave me herpes for ten years before he died. I used to sleep in his bed while he slept on the couch in the living room. I never slept with any of my lovers or at least not for more time than the initial necessary rest that must come after sexual intercourse and a bit of cuddling, talking. After the cuddling, sex, more cuddling, talk etc--sleep would take place with me somewhere else. I usually explained it to them and they agreed, no problem. If I forgot to explain it to them, THEY EXPLAINED IT TO ME and we made arrangements for proper sleep between bouts of love.

One guy I saw for 3 years used to rent two motel rooms when we travelled. I have never had anyone see my snoring as anything but

A) Funny

B) A minor inconvenience

My mother had been married unhappily two times, and divorced. Then she met Sid, and she fell in love with him, and she married him; he was her first and last real, true love. And he snored big time, just like me. They always had separate bedrooms. When I was in my teens, I used to hear him leaving his room at all hours and going into her room and then, hours later, walking back. I thought it was delightful that they had sex so often (at 15, I became aware of such things) and realized they had to have separate rooms because of Sid's snoring. I could hear him faintly every night even though I was down the hall from his room. We used to kid him about it.

Lots of people snore. And, I guess the point is, people do find ways to solve problems when they care about each other. None of my relationships ended due to snoring nor did snoring ever find its way into any fights or arguments I had with my lovers.

As for the fact that you have a lot of points against you, I do not mean to minimize your problem. I have age, weight, eccentricity, a tough schedule and herpes going against me; sometimes it all seems like too much to me, too. I may never find anyone. I do not believe "there is someone for everyone." Frankly, I think that is sentimental garbage. Some people do wind up alone. That may happen to you (or me). BUT IT MAY NOT. All I am saying is that the odds are against us but that doesn't mean we have no chance at all. And I think that we have a better chance if we at least believe we have something going for us, even if not the usual points that people are so often (too often) measured by. As I said before, people are not statistics.

Despair is a feeling I have had all too often in my life, and not without reason. But it has never helped me. It just seems to be inevitable for some of us to face a certain measure of despair at times. Just don't let it win permanently. Don't let it own your life. It is not human to give in to despair, not as a way of life, anyway.

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chooseyourbattles

My last boyfriend was:

*Short

*Fat

*Bipolar

*Low on testosterone

But I liked him because he was:

*Rich

*Intelligent

*Charismatic

Women fall for men who exude an aura of power, and who tell them what they want to hear.

You might not have that much going for you, but I'm sure you have something. All of life is a trade-off. And women each have different things that they are looking for....I think you're reading too much into it too. In fact, I think it is hilarious that you took the time to find all of those statistics to begin with. Maybe that kind of diligence would impress someone, I dunno.

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gotitsowhat

Here's a practical suggestion...

I base this idea on what I know of writers, writing and the book world.

ANYONE who writes a book gets laid. (OK, OK, maybe not textbooks or technical books). Authors, even ones who don't look good, get attention especially from females.

So...write a book (I can see that you can research and write). A non-fiction book because that is an easier sell. Also, you could address some of the problems you mentioned in your book. It could be serious (Memoirs of a Loser) or humorous (The Loser's Handbook). It could actually be on any subject. Just write it. If you write one page a day, in less than a year you will have a book. It doesn't have to be good. You don't have to be Shakespeare. Just write it.

Then self-publish it. If you have little money, then try the POD option since that would be an extremely cheap way to self-publish. You can put out a pretty decent looking book for a few hundred dollars. If you can come up with more money, you could go the self-publishing route without POD (much better if you can do it--I'm saving my money to self-publish one of my own books).

Once you have a book, arrange some book signings. This is very easy to do. You just go to bookstores and other places that sell books and offer to do a book signing if they will take some copies of your book on consignment. Write a great blurb on the back making yourself look interesting.

Then sit at the table and sign books and look into the eyes of any attractive women who talk to you. I can guarantee you that as an author, women will pay attention to you, yes, even if it is a simple POD book not from a major publishing house, even if no one has heard of you before. With any luck, you could get a radio interview, too. Lots of stations will interview writers if you call and offer to do an interview. If you really want to get professional about it, you could make up a lot of copies of the galley of the book and send them around so that you get some reviews. But even the most minimal effort in this area will probably pay off in female attention.

It might take a gimmick like that to put you in a situation where women see you as intriguing and interesting. Think creatively and try and think of something you could do that would get you some positive attention from females. Writing is good because you already have the skills but I am sure if you try you could come up with more stuff of this nature.

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