Chronic Bacterial Vaginosis

[kayla1987]

Hello Everybody. I have a reoccuring bacterial vaginosis case. It makes me have alot of discharge and burning sensation when I urinate. Ive taken 4 different medications in the last 3 months. It will go away for a few days and it comes back 4 or 5 days after i am done with my medication. I dont know whats causing it. My doctor said it isn't related to sexual intercourse, there is no way my boyfriend could be reinfecting me. I read somewhere there is a link to herpes virus and bacterial vaginosis.

Does anybody get bacterial vaginosis with an outbreak or quite frequently?

My OBGYN is so horrible. I hate going to their office. Their nurse acts liek she knows me and treats me horrible. My doctor tells me Im overreacting. But she has no idea how painful it is to urinate. UTI's have been ruled out. My blood count is normal. She even did a stool culture and that was normal. MY OBGYN tested my discharge and said i didn't have a yeast nor a bacterial infection. I went to my family doctor and she tested it and said I had a bacterial infection. I went back to my OB Gyn and she read the lab results over the computer on a shared network and said no that isn't a bacterial vaginosis. But I was treated anyways. And now when i pee it was fine...I was so happy my infection went away. I started the mdeication 02-13-07 for 7 days..and now today its started to burn when i pee....I dont know whats causing this. The only thing i can think of is sex. Me and my boyfriend of many years, do not use protection. We also use lubrication to avoid a herpes outbreak. Could it be the lubrication? Its the orginal KY jelly....no scent no warming..no nothing..plain jane....He also pulls out before he ejaculates..sorry to much information. and I immediately pee and take a shower and use st. ives..intimate wash. id o not douche....do not do anything and i dont know whats causing this.....I think it might be rrelated to the HSV 2...

[WaxedWrong]

sex is def a issue.

You SHOULD NOT be having sex while you have these infections, and he can be passing it back and forth (just like a yeast infection) has he been tested?

first thing, stop having sex - you can do it- i would rather go a month with out sex, then have chronic bacterial vaginosis. get your stuff under control, get his stuff under control (that means hes going to the doctor no-if-and-or-buts)

then when everything looks ok..... no issues, go for it like wild rabbits

[kayla1987]

Yeah your right

I have to go back to the hospital once again .... my doc is so silly she always like rushes me out of the hospital room. Anyways so i will be tested and treated once again.....do u know what kind of test he would have to do...and what kind of doctor he has to see? Stupid stupid question but women have OBGYNS what do men have? :oops:

[mrstaylor5]

OMG .. BV!!

I get CONSTANTLY..I"ve had docs tell me I don't have it..find out I do later...and bottom line..is I'm always right on the money..

I know I have it every time..I'm talking every other stankin month..I hate them!!

I don't just get them w/an o/b...I get them no matter when it is.

Now I take Metro..something..for them IF THE DOC AGREES I HAVE ONE..OTHERWISE I SUFFER...

But.those meds cause a YEAST infection when I am on my 7th day..so than I suffer w/that! But at least I can go get over the counter remedy for that..

but I don't use lubrication..and I still get them...they give you the soap story, perfume this...laundry softener that...detergent that...BUT i use NONE of that and I still get them.

They say my husband can't give it to me but I know they can..

and mind you this is 3 DOCTER OPINIONS!!

THis issue gets me sooo pissed off.

Men can just go to their family docs for penis related issues, hun.

Bottom line docs say its sooo hard to diagnois because of how it looks under the microscope but I say if they made the meds OTC. .. screw the doc, i'd get my own stuff..

[kayla1987]

Its ruining my sex life

So now I have a doc appointment today at 2:45. I hate telling her once again.....it burns when i pee...cause she does a Urine sample to see if its a UTI which i know its not, a UTI makes me strain to pee and burns bad all day. With a Bacterial vaginosis...that makes me have discharge.....and makes it burn when i pee....I am going to tell her.....The medicine she gave me completely healed the BV but immediately after i was done with the meds i had unprotected sex with my boyfriend and now i feel burning again...i hate it.....So now Once i take the meds......I feel like i dont want to have sex.......just to avoid the burning.....sad huh....oh well i just cant figure it out. I try to do everything right.....I....Use lubrication to avoid, rippin of skin so that i dont get an outbreak....I watch which kind of lubrication i use...fragrance free etc. Its original KY JELLY.....and.....i use st. ives vaginal cleaser...which is soap free so wont mess up any chemicals. I do not douche...do not even put a finger inside me when i wash.....and right after sex.....I shower......use the soap...and them pee immediately to avoid a urinary tract infection....then i get out of the shower....do not use any lotion in the area. pat myself dry and get the blow dryer to finish the drying.....but no matter what i still get this bacterial stuf........sorry for my intesity but i am frustrated....my doctor keeps saying, i have Chronic Bacterial Vaginosis. But im convinced my boyfriend has the infection also. and she said there is absolutely no way he came have it. So now I am going to the doc today...going to get treated. going to stop having sex and see how long it takes for the bacterial vaginosis to come back.....I am going to experiment with myself....Also I wish I could try that purrell stufff...but i have a vagina...lol....but this bacterial vaginosis sucks.....cause it ruins my sex life. And......I think i have developed an anxiety. Every lil thing i freak out...When it comes to my health. I barely have a back ache and head ache.....and think....its.....meninggitis from the herpes......i have a tummy ache and think i have ovarian cysts....i have diarrea and i think i have chrohns or colon cancer..........my boobs hurt before my period so i think....i have breast cancer......then i realize i am freaking out...and think i have a thyroid problem...thyroid can cause panic attacks...then i cry and freak out and think im losing my mind............I am the doctors constantly. On days when my body feels good i am on top of the world....and when it feels sick i feel as if i will die tomorrow. With this is it hard to concentrate on school...and yeah.....just want my body to get better dang it......oh well....sorry for the whole story...just want to know if anybody can relate. I know im not depressed because i am happy go lucky always, just when it comes to my health i nose dive....i think its because ive had herpes for awhile, just didn;'t know it. Until doctor did a blood test....so now i think....if i had herpes and didn't know it....what else could i have? i am 19 years old and have HSV 2, Asthma, Chronic Bacterial Vaginosis..Now developing an axiety disorder lol ....what else...?

[ouch]

um...yeah, I don't know how to tell you this, but....your doctor is a fuckin' idiot. I can't believe I am reading this shit. They should have their medical licence suspened and/or revoked. I am so sorry you have an idiot for an ob/gyn

You and your boyfriend CAN pass back and forth bachterial infections!!!!!!

You can have it, give it to him, it is then on him (more affectionately known as "jock itch" in men!!) and then once you are healed, He can give it back to you!!!! HE should be undergoing treatment the same time you are. HE should be on some sort of meds same time as you, as well as using any sort of external medicines to wipe this shit out. And yes, you SHOULD BOTH BE ABSTAINING FROM SEX FOR A WHILE, at least until you get this stuff cleared up. But all you two are doing is passing it back and forth to one another. Hence the "chronic" infection.

If I was you, I would look for a new doctor. Get this taken care of once and for all. This is insane. You shouldn't have to put up with this. The fact that the people in your doctors office are so rude is reason enough to tell them to piss off. They work for YOU.....they need to get off their high horse.

Grrrrr......this makes me so mad! Doctors and their God complexes such.

[tothefuture]

I agree, you need good quality medical care - step one.

But if you continue to have anxieties about symptoms then try reading up on 'health anxiety' to nip it in the bud so to speak. There's some good self-help stuff you can refer to.

[kayla1987]

Okay back from my apointment....the doctor did the usually urine analysis and tmi....and yup...positive for a bacterial infection....soooo.....the same antibiotic...clyndamycin...and she addmitted.....that my boyfriend could have a BV and can keep reinfecting me....i got mad and told her how she said the last appointment he couldn't be reinfecting me...and she said...wel what i ment was its not an STD, you cant catch it....but hey didn't she just contradict herself? cause tho it may not be an std, it can still be passed...dam i wasn't asking if it was an std...i asked.....if my bf could be giving it to me.................omg.............and then to make it worse... the nurse came back after the doctor left and she said, well hey its not bad.....its not like an std or anything and she made an ugly face.....id ont think she was away that i have genital herpes.....which is an std...and.....im not BAD for having it... so yeah i was so mad today....lol....but im so glad i have you guys to come talk to at the beginning and end of the day:)

[mrstaylor5]

Okay I got a new revelation

My doc called me today to tell me that indeed I do have BV he seen it in the pap tests..NOT the pelvic exam.

He also said that a man can pass back and forth a yeast infection .. not abacterial vaginosis. I called over to the ob/gyn who delivered my sons and he said the SAME THING..and i really trust that man.

And this is what he sent to me in an email after I emailed him w/the same question: Bacterial Vaginosis is not strictly an STD as it is not transmitted via sexual intercourse. However, it can be exacerbated by sex and is more frequently found in sexually active women than those who have never had intercourse. It is caused by an imbalance in the normal healthy bacteria found in the vagina and although it is relatively harmless and may pass unnoticed, it can sometimes produce an abundance of unpleasant fishy smelling discharge. Whilst there is no clear explanation as to why BV occurs, there have been suggestions that the alkaline nature of semen could be one cause, as it may upset the acidic nature of the vaginal bacteria. Another cause can be the use of an intrauterine contraceptive device (coil). A woman cannot pass BV to a man, but it is important she receives treatment as BV can occasionally travel up into the uterus and fallopian tubes and cause a more serious infection. Treatment for BV consists of taking antibiotics, like you are taking now, Flagyl or the generic.

I totally believe that. I was given Flagyl today, 3 times a day for 7 days. He did say you can have sexual intercourse but use a condom because the semen can weaken the medicene.

I just wanted you to know this..

[kayla1987]

Thanks

Well now im confused....Because we just left walk in clinic and my boyfriend was given 2000Mgs of Flagyl. It is a one time dose. he was also given Doxycycline for a yeast infection he could possibly develop from that huge dose of flagyl. LOL...And im taking clyndimycin. So who knows all i know is i want my damn pee to feel better. After we are both treated i am going to experiment on myself. I am going to take the medicine...and not have sex for about a month after i am done taking it. If I dont get a bacterial infection I will start having sex with a condom. If i still dont get a bacterial infection after a month of sex with a condom I am going to stop the condom use and see what happens. In the mean while we started the purell today. i bought the green stuff with aloe. I dabbed it on my boyfriends penis before bed with a q tip. Now im about to shower and dab a lil on my pimple looking things. Of course no where near the vaginal opening. ....So wish me luck everyone I will keep you posted.

[tohealth]

kayla,

I don't think your boyfriend should touch you unless he's wearing a condom (or you are wearing one).

[tohealth]

So now I have a doc appointment today at 2:45. I hate telling her once again.....it burns when i pee...cause she does a Urine sample to see if its a UTI which i know its not, a UTI makes me strain to pee and burns bad all day. With a Bacterial vaginosis...that makes me have discharge.....and makes it burn when i pee....I am going to tell her.....The medicine she gave me completely healed the BV but immediately after i was done with the meds i had unprotected sex with my boyfriend and now i feel burning again...i hate it.....So now Once i take the meds......I feel like i dont want to have sex.......just to avoid the burning.....sad huh....oh well i just cant figure it out. I try to do everything right.....I....Use lubrication to avoid, rippin of skin so that i dont get an outbreak....I watch which kind of lubrication i use...fragrance free etc. Its original KY JELLY.....and.....i use st. ives vaginal cleaser...which is soap free so wont mess up any chemicals. I do not douche...do not even put a finger inside me when i wash.....and right after sex.....I shower......use the soap...and them pee immediately to avoid a urinary tract infection....then i get out of the shower....do not use any lotion in the area. pat myself dry and get the blow dryer to finish the drying.....but no matter what i still get this bacterial stuf........sorry for my intesity but i am frustrated....my doctor keeps saying, i have Chronic Bacterial Vaginosis. But im convinced my boyfriend has the infection also. and she said there is absolutely no way he came have it. So now I am going to the doc today...going to get treated. going to stop having sex and see how long it takes for the bacterial vaginosis to come back.....I am going to experiment with myself....Also I wish I could try that purrell stufff...but i have a vagina...lol....but this bacterial vaginosis sucks.....cause it ruins my sex life. And......I think i have developed an anxiety. Every lil thing i freak out...When it comes to my health. I barely have a back ache and head ache.....and think....its.....meninggitis from the herpes......i have a tummy ache and think i have ovarian cysts....i have diarrea and i think i have chrohns or colon cancer..........my boobs hurt before my period so i think....i have breast cancer......then i realize i am freaking out...and think i have a thyroid problem...thyroid can cause panic attacks...then i cry and freak out and think im losing my mind............I am the doctors constantly. On days when my body feels good i am on top of the world....and when it feels sick i feel as if i will die tomorrow. With this is it hard to concentrate on school...and yeah.....just want my body to get better dang it......oh well....sorry for the whole story...just want to know if anybody can relate. I know im not depressed because i am happy go lucky always, just when it comes to my health i nose dive....i think its because ive had herpes for awhile, just didn;'t know it. Until doctor did a blood test....so now i think....if i had herpes and didn't know it....what else could i have? i am 19 years old and have HSV 2, Asthma, Chronic Bacterial Vaginosis..Now developing an axiety disorder lol ....what else...?

Honey, you're FEMALE. It's an amazing thing that our bodies are going through at any given time. A friend said once that between PMS, ovulation, breast swelling, fibercystic breast disease, endometriosis, our periods, cramps, a female really only has about 2 good days a month. I swear this has been the truth for me. My breast have been in chronic pain since I was 11 (cannot sleep on stomach). You're not alone in trying to interpret all the changes every month and in sometimes being made anxious by them. But over time I think you get smarter and ideally more relaxed. Lord, one time my left breast blew up a whole cup size and a 1/2 from 'ordinary' monthly hormonal changes, and my gyn and I were both alarmed---she sent me straight to a surgeon. All was well. Another time I went in a sauna and my bathing suit top (synthetic material) apparently melted on my areola (unbeknownst to me) and then resolidified in cooler temp outside the sauna. Left a hugh burning scab on my areola 3 days later---there's a breast cancer (Paget's disease) that looks EXACTLY like it. I was picking out funeral songs....So I understand...

[Support1]

All I have to say is Amen to all the posts on this topic. I have had so many bacterial infections, it is ridiculous. I have also had breast pain and everything else that could possibly go wrong with the body, including HSV 2. Oh yeah, and I have also had doctors that went to the medical school of stupidity.

[kayla1987]

get this...last night i had to be rushed to the emergency room because i had a ruptured ovarian cysts. i didn't need surgery because it wasn't quite in my ovary it was toward the middle....I swear i thougght of this forum...right away..and thought wait til everybody gets to hear this story now...so on top of everything...i have ovarian cysts and if one more ruptures the doc said she might have to remove my ovary and if it does it again i will have to have a hysterectomy..........soooo now seriously herpes in nothing to me...typical skin rash.....but hey i have this good pain meds...that take my pain away but i also have to take nausea medicine cause the pain meds make me too dizzy and i puke....lol...and with all that i am taking antibiotics...and using purell and watching for an outbreak...then....taking my enhaler for asthma...ahaha oh yeah...im located in north dakota and we have a blizzard so i have dry skin and my eczema is acting up cause of the dry weather..and blah blah...its all very funny....i think ima blow a bubble and sit inside it....lol with my computer and medicine and hey cant forget the purell....lollll

[Thisiscrazy!]

The last time I had a pap the doctor said I probably have the bateria thing and what she said was that it's not something sexually transmitted that it's caused by a change in your PH. What ever that means...I'm not sure but she said it could be a number of things irritation from sex, douching(I know you said you don't), tampons, and many more things. So, I guess it's kindda hard to pin point. But I hope this helped a little. She said it's similar to a yeast infection. I haven't had a problem peeing but do have a little discharge but I think once you pin point what it is and stop then you should be good.

[kayla1987]

thanks....i know its just so hard it could be a number of things dang it...

[mrstaylor5]

As for cysts...my doc said everyone gets them but they go away on their own. When we ovulate the follicules get what shall we say...um..'excited?' And they enlarge...most of us don't notice but there are some of us that do..cause they get larger.

I get cysts perhaps every 4 mths during ovulation. They always pop on there own..some can be clear liquid filled some blood filled...but never are harmful to my uterus, ovaries or tubes..it is quite common.

Here is more info on them:

Ovarian cysts are usually seen in three (3) forms:

• Follicular or Functional Ovarian Cysts
  
• Corpus Luteal Ovarian Cysts
  
• Endometrioma or Chocolate Cysts

What are Follicular Cysts?

These are the most common of the benign functional cysts (functional meaning in response to a normal menstrual cycle). Each time an egg is produced by the ovary a small cyst forms. The cyst is usually very small and ruptures when releasing the egg during ovulation. If the cysts don't rupture they may continue to grow; however, as they rarely grow larger than 8 centimeters and normally shrink after ovulation, surgery is usually not required. If rupture occurs, pelvic pain may result and last 24-48 hours. The pain is due to a small amount of bleeding which is irritating to the abdominal cavity. Surgery may be indicated in cases when bleeding continues or is excessive.

Diagnosis

Ultrasound is the primary tool used to document the follicular cyst. A pelvic exam will also aid in the diagnosis if the cyst is large enough to be seen.

Treatment

Follicular cysts usually resolve on their own in 3-6 weeks.

What are Corpus Luteum Cysts?

These are much less common than follicular cysts. Corpus luteum cysts develop after the ovary releases its egg and the formed follicular cyst changes into a small hormone producing "yellow body", also known as the corpus luteum. If the yellow body reaches a size of greater than 3 centimeters, it is then referred to as a cyst. Rupture of these ovarian cysts occurs more often on the right side, during intercourse and during the later days of the menstrual cycle when the cysts are at their largest. If they grow too large, they may need to be surgically removed.

Smokers have a two-fold increased risk of developing functional ovarian cysts.

Oral contraceptive therapy has been known to markedly reduce the risk of the formation of the functional ovarian cysts.

back to top

What are Endometriomas/Chocolate Cysts?

This disease process is also known as Endometriosis of the ovaries. Tiny implants of cells that line the uterine cavity become transplanted and form small cysts on the outside of the ovary. These cysts enlarge and produce Endometriosis of the ovary. They respond to hormone stimulation during the menstrual cycle and produce many small cysts, which may then occupy and even replace the normal ovarian tissue.

These endometriomas are filled with a thick chocolate-type material, which is the reason they are known as "chocolate cysts". When this type of ovarian cyst ruptures, the material spills over into the pelvis and onto the surface of the uterus, bladder and bowel and the corresponding spaces between. Adhesions can develop because of this rupture and may lead to pelvic pain.

back to top

What are the symptoms of Ovarian Cysts?

If these cysts remain small (less than 3 centimeters) no symptoms may result. Cysts larger than 10 centimeters cause the most common symptoms such as pelvic pain, which may present either unilaterally or bilaterally.

As with Endometriosis, pain may be worse at different points throughout the menstrual cycle. If these cysts rupture and peritoneal implants are present, the same type of debilitating pelvic pain may occur (Please see Section on Endometriosis).

[kayla1987]

LADIES LADIES LADIES....I REALIZED WHAT WAS CAUSING MY BACTERIAL VAGINOSIS......MY DAMN LUBRICATION....AS SOON AS I FOUND OUT I HAD HERPES IVE HEARD THAT SEX CAN INDUCE A OUTBREAK SO I STARTED USING LUBRICATION...I USUALLY NEVER USED IT BUT TOOK THE ADVICE..AND WELLL....GOT BACTERIAL INFECTIONS AFTER BACTERIAL INFECTIONS....FINALLY I STOPPED WITH THE LUB AND GUESS WHAT.....I STOPED TAKING MY MEDS ABOUT 1 WEEK AND 4 DAYS AGO...AND STILL NO BURNING PEE SO HOPEFULLY NO BACTERIAL INFECTION.... OH YEAH I AM STILL HAVING SEX WITH BOYFRIEND....SO I DONT TOTALLY KNOW IF IT WAS THAT HE WENT TO THE DOC AND GOT CURED OR IF IT WAS THE LUB...EITHER WAY I STOPPED USING THE LUB....NO RUSH TO TRY TO COME UP WITH A COMPLETE CONCLUSION...LOL

[kayla1987]

...

Still no bacterial infection and still not using lubrication. What do ya know...The lubrication was actually causing the bacterial infection...or either that the medication my boyfriend took made his bacterial infection go away...either way still doing great.....not using lube still...just wanted to update my fellow ladies with the "CHRONIC PROBLEM"

[Astara777]

It burns when I pee all the time!! BV?

Hi..

Im pretty new to this board but ive had genital herpes type 1 for 2 years now. About a week after my first outbreak cleared up I started having burning when I peed. I saw my doc and there was no UTI or yeast infection.. so she put me on supressive therapy (valtrex 500mg a day). That didnt fix the problem so she put me on 1000mg a day... still didnt clear it up. She kept having me come in to check for a UTI (which ive never had) and still they were negative. She just sort of brushed it off and so did my regular doctor. Well here I am 2 years later and it still burns when I pee and it also hurts when my bf and I have sex. Like when he first puts it in it burns a lot so we use a ton of lube which helps when we finally get into it, but the entire area just sort of burns and makes me not want to have sex. Im so sick of it hurting everytime I pee!! I try to drink tons of water just to dilute it so its clear and doesnt hurt so bad (tmi?!) Anyways I searched the web up and down for what this might be since my doctors dont seem to give a rats ass. The only thing I came up with was vulvodynia. I may have come across bacterial vaginosis but for some reason didnt think thats what I had. I did have a full pelvic exam in the summer of 2006 and everything came up clear.. would she have seen it then or not? As for the discharge I mean its pretty normal.. as far as a fishy smell I never really noticed but lately it has been a little "different". Anywho Im at my wits end and I really want a normal sex life with my boyfriend. We havent had sex in like a month because I just dont want to.. it just doesnt feel right down there I dont want to be touched. With that said the astroglide probably isnt the cause of this because my symptoms have been worse lately and we havent had sex. Im just going to make an appt. tomorrow and demand to get to the bottom of this instead of being passive and trying not to think about it. Its like when you're in the doctors office and THEY tell you you're ok, you want so badly to believe them.... but then you go home and its just the same crap all over again and you realize they didnt really do their job!!! If anyone has any suggestions please let me know.

[Caliope]

Astara777

Have you ever seen a urologist? You are describing something that doesn't seem to be an issue to your gynecologist but relates to urinary pain so wouldn't that be worth looking into.

I have read that hsv can effect the urethra but to be in pain that long seems excessive.

The only other thing I would suggest is that perhaps hsv has made you more sensitive and if your bladder is too alkaline you may have low levels of bacteria which cause the discomfort. Cranberry juice is known to create acidic urine which keeps bacteria growth down - have you tried this? You can even purchase cranberry tablets for this.

[kayla1987]

Awww Honey Im soo sorry I know how you feel...It burns when i pee all the time too.....The doc even treated me for a uti even though i didn't have one she thought maybe the meds would help. Have you been checked for bacterial vaginosis. or you could have something called urethritus orr.....it could be a std, sometimes docs dont check for things like chlymdia and gonneria, i know you have been with the same guy but just incase...also....You could also have kidney stones....or it could be anything my lovely.....Ask your primary doctor to get you into see a urologist. He will be able to help you more then you OBGYN, you will be wasting your time if you go see her again. She is just a doc for the vagina and cervix etc. a urologist knows his pee area...the uretha etc. sorry for being so blunt just wanna help you get to the bottom of this...

[simply me]

need some feedback

To help the woman below you can get bv with just having sex with your boyfriend. I never got it until I was with my husband. Sometimes our bodies handle others bacteria in a bad way. My body isnt always fond of his bacteria. Okay my husband has herpes 2 and I thought I had it but I have been tested with the culture and blood work. Im clean I have vaginitis. I am taking a strong dosage of antibiotics but I have had like a raw outbreak where i have a raw spot on me down there. Its starting to go to the other side a little bit. I was under a lot of stress when my husband went over seas and had chancre sores for a while there in my mouth then this started happening. It has been there for 2 months. One doctor told me it could have been from the vaginitis going untreated for so long. All the std pics I look at do not look like my current problem. It wont heal its like a raw spot with a few small bumps. I feel like I have some morphed form of an std. Again I had a paps and the only thing that stood out was a few abnormal cells. It happens every so often. But I am clean as a whistle except for the BV. What do I have Can anyone help me. Has anyone experienced this problem?

[simply me]

my recent post

Hey not to the woman below to the woman I am replying about. Sorry.

[DanaS]

Reoccuring BV

Totally responding to the very first post.

I have the same problem, but it has only started since I have been diagnosed with Herpes and I was diagnosed only after a long sex hiatus / abstinence period. So when I started having sex again, I got herpes, and a reoccurring case of BV, which I attributed to me having herpes. The BV does not hurt, just cases mild irritation and some discharge. I have refillable prescriptions of anti biotics for the BV. But its interesting to think that it could be caused by my partner instead of just the herps. I did not know that.