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VVK

Intermittent Fasting and CMA -

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VVK

This thread is about the use of Chaperone-mediated autophagy, a powerful biological process in the human body, to fight off HSV. Most people never experience it in action because it requires us to either go hungry for periods throughout the day or to cut out the consumption of almost all carbohydrates. If done correctly, this effectively puts HSV into a dormant state.

[Update December 2017] Before any further reading, I strongly recommend that everyone check and address any Vitamin A and Vitamin D deficiencies that they may have. Failure to do so will lead to poor results with any kind of treatment regimen. If you are deficient in Vitamin A and/or Vitamin D, treat those deficiencies first.

I would recommend the following reading to those who:

1. are having symptoms or outbreaks that are not responding to medication (you may be experiencing side-effects or drug-resistance), or

2. do not want to rely on medication, or

3. cannot afford or access medication, or

4. do not want to experience any more outbreaks

 

Note: This is a work in progress as I continue to learn more about this very important topic. There is no way that I can do it justice in this post, so I encourage everyone to read and learn as much as possible about Chaperone-mediated autophagy. The material below might appear long-winded, but I guarantee you it is a very important read.

 

Summary (warning, contains "science"):

Chaperone-mediated autophagy (CMA) is the only type of autophagy in mammalian cells able to selectively degrade cytosolic proteins in lysosomes. It is also involved in the recycling of old and damaged immune cells, which leads to the regeneration of the immune system. Furthermore, HSV also relies heavily on cytosolic proteins to replicate and to hide from the immune system response that would otherwise destroy any cells that contain HSV. The idea is to control HSV through the use of CMA to regenerate the immune system and destroy cytosolic proteins used by HSV to replicate.

In Plain English: HSV infection can be controlled in the human body through the process called Chaperone-mediated autophagy. Turning on Chaperone-mediated autophagy requires us to stop eating for periods anywhere between 10 hours and 3 days, which includes hours of sleep. Drinking fluids is allowed as long as they do not contain any sugar or other carbohydrates. Fluids that are acceptable are therefore pure water and sugar-free tea and coffee - with very few other exceptions. After 36 hours, Chaperone-mediated autophagy is working at its maximum rate, but it stops after 3 days and must be reset by refeeding. The optimal amount of time spent with Chaperone-mediated autophagy turned on to control HSV is not known and will vary between individuals. (Personal disclosure: I usually go for about 12-16 hours.)

 

Background:

Recently I've been interested in Chaperone-mediated autophagy and its role in bringing HSV into a completely dormant state in the body. I have advocated trying the ketogenic diet (low to no carbohydrate) since carbohydrates are involved in fueling the virus's activity. Cutting out carbohydrates will control the virus while also activating Chaperone-mediated autophagy (by increasing levels of ketone bodies in blood). Chaperone-mediated autophagy, the cell housekeeping service, in turn breaks down the virus's helping proteins and enzymes in the cells that are affected. As a result, the virus goes to sleep.

 

However, a low or no- carbohydrate diet is difficult to sustain for many reasons. A couple of big reasons are that: 1. carbohydrates are a relatively low-cost source of energy, so replacing them with fats may not be affordable for some, and 2. many people are also adapted to functioning on carbohydrates, so changing this takes time and patience while figuring out what to eat to feel 'normal' without eating carbohydrates. It is very easy to make mistakes that will have negative effects on short and long-term health.

 

I've come across another aspect to Chaperone-mediated autophagy, in that fasting also activates this process in as little as 10 hours. It occurred to me that Intermittent Fasting might also help those that are severely affected by HSV. This involves having a small window during the day where a person eats and then not eating for the rest of the day (water and unflavoured and no-sugar coffee and tea is allowed). When we sleep, we already get about 6-8 hours of fasting in. All that's needed is to skip or move breakfast OR dinner, which would bring the fasting window to 10-16 hours and allow Chaperone-mediated autophagy to work for a little bit and make it difficult for the virus to replicate. The longer the fasting window, the more Chaperone-mediated autophagy has a chance to work.

 

Thus, there are two ways to go about using Chaperone-mediated autophagy - either ketogenic diet or intermittent fasting.

 

One final point: HSV is a very well developed virus. If it is active, it is able to control and block normal autophagy processes. It has evolved this way and this is part of the reason why it is so successful. I think (and this is purely a personal opinion based on my own experience, and not proven to be the case for all people) that in order to really get the virus under control, there's a sequence to follow:

1. Ketogenic diet (I'm not sure for how long it is necessary, but I did it for 3 months) ** if you follow this approach, be very cautious and make sure to eat the necessary amounts of fats and salts to remain healthy.. it is very easy to mess this up and undereat, because you won't feel hungry on this diet even if you actually need to eat

2. Intermittent fasting - either consistently every day or in phases for a month or two at a time. It is important to note here that you don't have to be on a ketogenic diet in order to do intermittent fasting.

It might be enough to just do Step 2, but I have no way to be sure yet.

 

Addendum - February 2017

I have been studying the influence of vitamins and minerals on the immune system. In the process, I have learned that vitamin D affects autophagy processes. Thus, deficient vitamin D levels can lead to poor performance of CMA. There are likely other vitamins and minerals also involved in helping CMA function which are not well-known at this time. Therefore, not only is it important to allow CMA to work but also to make sure that the body still has the right nutrient levels to allow CMA to work properly - it is more than just making sure the levels of carbs, proteins, and fats are right. Nutrition must consistently be on point on a macro- and micro- nutrient level. Variability in nutrition will influence results.

 

More info:

J.D. Moyer - "Death Will Eat Itself (The Enormous Benefits of Autophagy, or Why You Should Stop Eating Once in Awhile)"

Michael Eades M.D. - "Ketosis cleans our cells"

Josh Whiton - "Autophagy"

Fasting triggers stem cell regeneration of damaged, old immune system

Wikipedia - Chaperone Mediated Autophagy

 

The following links contain articles written with a scientific audience in mind:

Kaushik et al. - "Chaperone-mediated autophagy at a glance"

Taylor, Mautner, and Munz - "Autophagy in herpesvirus immune control and immune escape"

Fujiwara et al. - "Direct uptake and degradation of DNA by lysosomes" (note: can CMA remove viral DNA as well along with proteins?)

Yakoub & Shukla - "Autophagy Stimulation Abrogates Herpes simplex Virus-1 Infection" (thanks hsv1owner)

Campbell & Spector - "Vitamin D ... Induction of Autophagy"

 

Related Forum Links (I'll add more as I find them):

Dokuhime - "Crash diet for killing OBs"

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VVK

Agreed Zepp, but I don't know how well and to what extent CMA needs to work. Fasting needs to go for at least 10 hours but at most 3 days. After 3 days, CMA stops working. So you'd have to do "fasting pulses" that are at most 3 days long, otherwise you are just starving without the benefits of CMA.

Note: Initially I stated 36 hours as the maximum but I misread my source. In fact, CMA is fully active after 36 hours and is working at its fastest rate. It completely stops after 3 days though. The question is, is it worth fasting for 3 straight days? Or perhaps a ketogenic diet would be good enough to achieve the same effect, with a spike of carbohydrates every 3 days.

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VVK

I just realized I can't edit the main post after a while, so I'll have to keep adding material further down the thread until I either get the ability to edit the first post or get a separate editable page.

For those who are scientifically inclined or who wish to brave the waters of a scientific journal, here is a description of how cytomegalovirus (a type of herpesvirus) inhibits a living cell's ability to signal to the rest of the body that it is infected. It's sort of like a very smooth bank robbery on the cellular level. The rest of the herpesviruses, including HSV 1 and 2, operate in a likewise manner.

Viral Mediated Redirection of NEMO/IKKc to Autophagosomes Curtails the Inflammatory Cascade

Initially I thought that HSV may inhibit chaperone-mediated autophagy, but after reading further I can't say for sure that it does. It does inhibit macroautophagy, which is a related process in cells. Chaperone-mediated autophagy might not be affected.

I also found an e-book containing some scientific articles that can serve as an introduction to autophagy for those interested (it's free for now, but very lengthy and is written with a scientist audience in mind):

Eat Thyself, Heal Thyself: Autophagy...

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Ceecee1

Search for Tyler tolman, he did a thing on fb recently about the herpes virus and fasting

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VVK

Yeah I just checked him out. He does mention water fasting, which would trigger Chaperone-Mediated Autophagy. (Note: His juice fasts would not achieve the same, since the fruit contains sugar...) Tyler mentions that an extended water fast can be used to eliminate HSV permanently because the body breaks down all of the HSV in the body. I think that is an oversimplification of what might happen. I think the body may eventually simply destroy all cells containing the HSV DNA, once those cells can successfully present the virus's antigens on their surfaces. It's sort of like one of the vaccines someone was trying to develop, where the goal was to make infected cells visible to the body, except with fasting you don't really need the vaccine.

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lexyz22

Great topic VVK.

I love the more science based topics on here.

Check out my topic on IGF-1 and Thymosin Beta 4. I am experimenting with injections, especially with Thymosin, to see if it helps my immune function (the primary role of Thymosin Beta 4 is to produce T Cells and facilitate immune function). I will not be taking antivirals whilst doing these injections to see whether or not my body remains free from this God Awful virus.

Regarding this topic, I weight train frequently and have heard of the Ketogenic Diet AND intermittent fasting. I'll admit, the Ketogenic is hard in a modern day lifestyle, EVERYTHING contains sugar.

Regarding intermittent fasting, sugar is usually consumed on this diet, so would that not make the HSV worse? Or is it the fact you are depriving your body of nutrients during certain parts of the day that makes it "go to sleep" as you say.

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VVK

Lexyz22, it's working for me. No outbreaks so far for over 2 years.

Nutrient deprivation is what leads to the virus going to sleep / becoming inactive. While nutrient-deprived, the body breaks down unnecessary proteins in the cells of the body, which includes those that HSV needs to replicate and stay hidden from the immune system. Once those proteins are gone, HSV can't do anything.

I can't tell you for exactly how long HSV stays inactive yet. I can only speculate since I haven't found studies on this yet (or they don't exist). In my experience, after I did 3 months of ketogenic diet and 6 months of intermittent fasting, I involuntarily had to go on 6 months of a traditional diet (bootcamp lifestyle - breakfast, lunch, dinner) where I ate a bunch of junk food with a lot of ice cream and sugar beverages. I didn't have a single outbreak throughout all of that. Presently I am back to my normal intermittent fasting approach where I eat for 8 hours and then fast for 16 hours, and I returned to it by choice.

Sugar does make an active HSV infection worse. Until the infection is made dormant, sugar is a sure way to fuel breakouts. However, once HSV is inactive in the body, sugar is not such a big deal. I still eat ice cream and chocolate every day and in large quantities, but I do it during those 8 hours only and usually only at the beginning. However, there was the 6 month boot-camp period where I was eating way more sugar than I am now and throughout the day..

Good luck with the IGF-1/Thymosin Beta 4 project. I did see your topic a few days ago and I found it very interesting. Hopefully it works for you! I would highly recommend that you try the approach in this topic first just because injecting can be dangerous and might not be necessary. However, I can completely understand if you really want to see if they will work!

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lexyz22
Lexyz22, it's working for me. No outbreaks so far for over 2 years.

Due to my lifestyle I dont think i can achieve a Keto Diet, however i could accomodate for intermittent fasting. Would this be enough you think?

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VVK

It depends how well you follow intermittent fasting. If you cheat and eat anything outside of the eating window then it won't work. If you do it properly and optimize the fasting window (I'd say aim for 16 hours regularly and, if you dare, go up to 3 days once in a while just with water), then I think it should be enough. I only have the formula that seemed to have worked for me, but I think it would be great to see if intermittent fasting alone would work for you.

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lexyz22
It depends how well you follow intermittent fasting. If you cheat and eat anything outside of the eating window then it won't work. If you do it properly and optimize the fasting window (I'd say aim for 16 hours regularly and, if you dare, go up to 3 days once in a while just with water), then I think it should be enough. I only have the formula that seemed to have worked for me, but I think it would be great to see if intermittent fasting alone would work for you.

My only concern is that Intermittent Fasting pretty much allows you to eat whatever you want. I guess what you're saying is use the principles behind intermittent fasting, but use KETO based foods?

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VVK

No. It's fine to eat carbohydrates - your usual rice, corn, and potatoes, etc. as long as it is in your eating window. You can even eat sugary foods, but I would suggest eating those in moderation because they might fuel HSV if the virus is not completely dormant yet.

Intermittent fasting, if done correctly, should work on its own in theory.

Ketogenic diet, if done correctly, should work on its own (it did for me).

If you really want, you can do both at the same time but it's not really necessary since either one independently allows CMA to work in the body. Just keep in mind:

If you do intermittent fasting, you can eat whatever you want but you do not eat during the fasting window. That's crucial.

If you do Ketogenic diet, you cannot eat carbohydrates (except maybe a maximum of 50 grams or so a day from complex carbohydrate sources) and must load up on fats for your energy source otherwise it defeats the entire diet.

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gone-girl

I am interested in learning more about this and even trying it. I am tired at the moment but will come back tomorrow to read your links. I have studied calorie restriction (CR) and longevity before in the past....so what you are writing about makes sense. I am a bit concerned about weight loss as I am already somewhat slim but if this can somehow rid the body of HS-1 (which unfortunately I have down below) then I am very open to trying this. I know very little about ketogenic diet so I will read your links.

Thank you for this!

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VVK

I'm glad you're thinking of trying this gone-girl. Be careful though - these diets are not in any way intended for weight loss. You should still be able to consume the calories you need on any given day so as not to lose weight. Calorie restriction is a separate topic that I am not discussing here. With intermittent fasting, you just have a time window where you must eat all of your required calories. With a ketogenic diet, you get your calories mostly from fats and it is crucial to make sure you eat enough fats every day or otherwise your diet fails. While on the ketogenic diet, for example, I used to eat a lot of salmon, sugar-free peanut butter, and just a lot of regular butter as sources of fat.

I'll let you figure out which approach you want to take, but if you have any questions specific to the diets themselves and the links I have posted are not sufficient, I have many more good links that I have used in the past that I would gladly share with you if I can't answer the question directly.

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gone-girl

Thank you. I just wanted to clarify that I am not interested in losing weight so thank you for stating the importance of getting those calories in. I know that CR is a totally different subject and is not really related to herpes but I think there is truth to using diet to help with things. I will have to research ketogenic diets and look at your links. Right now I cannot eat seeds/nuts, not just due to herpes, but due to a recent life threatening allergic reaction to something--I ended up in the ER and for now, until I get further testing, I am eliminating some of the more commonly high risk allergic foods.

Thank you for your willingness to answer questions as needed :) What I read in this thread is very promising and gives me hope. It also, intuitively, makes sense to me.

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gone-girl

Ok, I have read half of the links and am very interested in trying both at the same time--the fasting and then adopting a low carb/ketogenic diet. I think the fasting should be a 'forever' discipline (I believe in this but have never really been disciplined to try this until now) and the low carb diet something that I do for a time period (how long, I am not sure, depending on how I respond). Now, is the 'low carb' diet that you are referring to also what is sometimes called 'paleo'? What foods are allowed or not allowed on your understanding of ketogenic? I am assuming, possibly wrongly, that it is no grains and just vegetables, fats and then proteins (what proteins are and are not allowed?). Is fruit a no no (I would assume from your caption about sugar that fruit is possibly a no no). Is plain tea ok--like a hot cup of tea?

Sorry for so many questions......I am new and somewhat desperate to try something to get a handle on my situation. Thank you for understanding!!

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lexyz22
Ok, I have read half of the links and am very interested in trying both at the same time--the fasting and then adopting a low carb/ketogenic diet. I think the fasting should be a 'forever' discipline (I believe in this but have never really been disciplined to try this until now) and the low carb diet something that I do for a time period (how long, I am not sure, depending on how I respond). Now, is the 'low carb' diet that you are referring to also what is sometimes called 'paleo'? What foods are allowed or not allowed on your understanding of ketogenic? I am assuming, possibly wrongly, that it is no grains and just vegetables, fats and then proteins (what proteins are and are not allowed?). Is fruit a no no (I would assume from your caption about sugar that fruit is possibly a no no). Is plain tea ok--like a hot cup of tea?

Sorry for so many questions......I am new and somewhat desperate to try something to get a handle on my situation. Thank you for understanding!!

Do some research on the Keto / Paleo diet, they are extremely popular in Bodybuilding / Fitness communities and there are lots of good recipies out there.

Basically with the Keto diet, you replace Carbs with Fats as your main energy source, and your body uses your own fat stores as energy, which actually is a much more efficient form of energy than carbs.

When i did the Keto diet last time, i could eat a MAXIMUM of 30g of carbs a day. This is harder than you think and requires you to write out a diet plan.

On the Keto Diet i was eating a lot of cheese, eggs, sausage, beef, mince etc...

You can eat vegetables but it depends on carbs fundamentally.

Regarding this topic, i will be experimenting with just intermittent fasting for the time being, making sure my main carbs are coming from good sources such as sweet potato/ brown rice etc. I will report back after a month

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gone-girl

Hi there Lexy. I know that there are a lot of vegetables that are not considered starches and I am assuming those are ok (i.e. like greens). I will look online for some information regarding this however I also know that sometimes there is conflicting information out there regarding dietary protocols so I thought getting more specific direction from someone here would be good :) I am assuming eggs are ok, what about plain yogurt? I will be trying what you are doing--very limited carbs from good sources like sweet potatoes. For me, the hardest part will be the protein because I don't eat meat. I eat fish but never any other kinds of meat. BUT, if this is a possible way to rid the body of viruses (and I have read a similar protocol for other conditions)....then I have to gear up for this. I am not sure if there are any seafood/fish that are considered no-no's?

As far as the fasting, I have heard good things about this for awhile but was never really motivated or disciplined to try. This is also something that my faith endorses so it will have an additional spiritual meaning for me. I will begin to do this.

I am going to do this for one month too. I am going to track not just my herpes issues but other things like anxiety, energy, sleep quality etc....this will be informal but I am thinking based on the links I read by the original poster, that there are some really positive benefits that can come with this.

I am just at a loss about the whole meat issue.......I am mentally bracing myself for this. I will buy organic and will go tomorrow to get a proper pan to cook with.

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VVK

For keto/low-carb, it's just a matter of keeping your carbohydrate intake at very low levels while eating a lot of fat, pretty much what lexy said. For keto diets, that's around 50g a day of carbohydrates and sometimes less while eating up to 150 g of fats. For an example of keto dieting, here's an outline from one website. There are many out there.

If you ever wonder how many carbohydrates are in a serving of a particular type of food, look it up on sites like nutrition data.

Vegetables are usually good, but some have a lot of carbohydrates that can add up over the day. Watch out for carbohydrates in carrots, tomatoes, and red peppers for example. They're still okay to eat, but if you eat a lot of them then the carbohydrates will add up.

Sweet potatoes wouldn't work for a keto diet since they are still sources of carbohydrates. Eggs are fine and you should eat them whole, not just the whites. Plain yogurt is okay BUT you will need to check how many grams of sugar are in it because sometimes sugar is still added even to plain yogurts to make it taste better. The higher the fat content the better. I used to eat heavy cream on its own along with sour cream and cream cheese.. Fish is great to eat, especially salmon.

Fish will get boring and/or expensive unless you live by the sea, so alternatives to fish that aren't meat but include a good amount of protein would be eggs (lots of eggs), cheese, and beans (edit: my mistake, beans are carbohydrate-rich, so not suitable for keto diet.. I don't recommend these in large quantities since they have some toxic effects). Otherwise there's always protein powder that you can use to make up the difference, which ends up being cheaper than meat if you get it in bulk. However, you'd need to get one without added sugar or sweeteners. You could get that in bulk from Canadian Protein, MSS (USA) or a similar source.

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VVK

Fruit contain sugar so usually they are not allowed unless you are just on an intermittent-fasting regimen. If you're going for keto diet then fruit would be something you'd eat very rarely.

Regarding paleo vs. keto, the two are not the same although they can be similar. Paleo has some allowances for carbohydrates. Paleo refers more to quality of food and emphasizing certain foods over others, whereas keto is strictly about limiting carbohydrates. You can read more on that in detail on sites like Paleoplan. For a good starter on the ketogenic diet, check out sites that are dedicated to it such as theketogenicdiet.

For keto, it's fats, proteins, and low-carb vegetables that make up the diet. If you want to drink beverages, they are okay as long as they don't have carbohydrates. That means no-sugar tea, coffee, and water drinks are fine. Alcohol from a keto perspective is not fine unless it's something like vodka, because if you look at the contents of most alcoholic beverages, they are heavily filled with carbohydrates. Alcohol from a health perspective is not fine because it's a poison, but that's another topic...

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VVK

If you're going to try the ketogenic diet, it's good to figure out how much you need to eat of fat, protein, and carbohydrates. There are calculators out there such as the one on the KetoDiet Blog. My favourite calculator is the IIFYM (If it fits your macros) Calculator. It's an all-in-one calculator for many different diet approaches.

Just keep in mind that the values are for grams of actual protein and actual fat, not the weight of the foods that contain these. There will be some number crunching required until you get a feel for what works for your body. For example, if you want to eat some butter to get some fat from it, you can get 23 grams of fat from 28 grams of butter.

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gone-girl

Thank you for your replies and I will check out those links!!

Ok, I do eat the whole egg because I know that the yolks contain the most nutrients. I am not worried about eating a lot of eggs because I have low cholesterol and also low blood pressure and I am thin and active so I will be ok. I have found a plain yogurt that has no added sugar and is high in protein--called 'siggi's icelandic yogurt. One cup has 14 grams of protein and no added sugar. I am assuming that cottage cheese is ok then. I do not want to go down the protein powder route--I know this works for a lot of people but not for me. I am going to order some vital choice fish to be sent to me:

http://www.vitalchoice.com/shop/pc/home.asp

and I am going to have to begin to eat a small amount of meat...at least for 30 days and during this time I will do fasting. I love vegetables so I will be having lots of herbs and greens and I will review the links provided to get more ideas.

I dont eat a lot of fruit but will just give it up for 30 days. A lot of cancer protocols cut out all sugar including fruit so this does not surprise me (nor does the info in your signature line regarding sugar).

I realize that I am going to have to make a really drastic change....but, if what you posted is true (and it makes sense to me) then it is worth it. I am not sure if after 30 days I can just stick to fasting and then ease up a bit on the no carb way or not. I am going to monitor myself on many dimensions (informally) to see what I notice. Desperation to get my situation under better control (I wrote about it in my introduction) is motivating me to make such drastic changes!!!

I am not a big bean eater--I like lentils (which are pulses) and chickpeas for hummus. I may incorporate some beans (I will, again, see what the links recommend) into this just for some additional options. I am not going to lie, meat is going to be an issue.

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VVK

Actually gone-girl, I think I made a mistake with the beans - they are a carbohydrate-rich food. Sorry about that. Everything else should be on the mark though. Good luck with the 30-day trial run. I think you should see good results!

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