Subunit vaccines for hsv- why it's not feasible

[Rational Vaxxer 1,543]

Because science.

A live-attenuated HSV-2 ICP0 virus elicits 10 to 100 times greater protection against genital herpes than a glycoprotein D subunit vaccine.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/21412438/

Edited June 15, 2017 by Rational Vaxxer

[OFMDH 834]

6 hours ago, takeoff-signet-pretzel said:

.....but there is a clear contradiction in the literature (unless I have misunderstood the data — which is likely — in which case, somebody please correct me).

It's not a contradiction. While the 2011 study in mice showed it offered protection, first for ocular (eyeballs) and then in 2015 vagina viral  exposure; while the 2012 study in guinea pigs showed it rapidly faded and was just as effective as the subunit boogie man for vagina viral exposure.

The murine model (mice) is seriously flawed and using it to draw conclusions about people is completely ignorant and naive.  The virus doesn't reactive in mice, the virus doesn't block MCH I presentation (immune response) in mice, and to even infect mice the mice have to have large doses of female sex hormones to damper their immune system. 

Even in guinea pigs, like mice the virus doesn't block MCH I presentation (immune response) that well, however it at least reactivates and mimics clinically the human presentation. You can also just starve the little animals and its enough stress for them to OB. 

Ian Frazer's autobiography talks about the development of the HPV vaccine and he knew not to get excited about mice results, in his own words "mice results often lie". 

This is no different. The mice results are malarky.  

 

 

Edited June 16, 2017 by OhFuckMyDickHurts

[OFMDH 834]

16 hours ago, Rational Vaxxer said:

Because science.

Yes it's because................. Science!

LMFAO.

I've heard better explanations how cooties work from kindergarteners.

Edited June 16, 2017 by OhFuckMyDickHurts

[moialbalushi 542]

10 hours ago, OhFuckMyDickHurts said:

It's not a contradiction. While the 2011 study in mice showed it offered protection, first for ocular (eyeballs) and then in 2015 vagina viral  exposure; while the 2012 study in guinea pigs showed it rapidly faded and was just as effective as the subunit boogie man for vagina viral exposure.

The murine model (mice) is seriously flawed and using it to draw conclusions about people is completely ignorant and naive.  The virus doesn't reactive in mice, the virus doesn't block MCH I presentation (immune response) in mice, and to even infect mice the mice have to have large doses of female sex hormones to damper their immune system. 

Even in guinea pigs, like mice the virus doesn't block MCH I presentation (immune response) that well, however it at least reactivates and mimics clinically the human presentation. You can also just starve the little animals and its enough stress for them to OB. 

Ian Frazer's autobiography talks about the development of the HPV vaccine and he knew not to get excited about mice results, in his own words "mice results often lie". 

This is no different. The mice results are malarky.  

 

 

Regarding Ian Frazer's statement , Im not sure if you can use it for this topic becuase this is comparing two vaccines in mice. It is not comparing a one vaccine's results between  mice and human trials. No ? 

Edited June 16, 2017 by moialbalushi

[moialbalushi 542]

41 minutes ago, SupermansJustice said:

Ian Frazer's point is that you cannot assume that success in mice studies should not necessarily be used to predict success in human studies. That is why for HSV particularly, using guinea pigs is so important. It is well known in the scientific community that mice studies with HSV can be very unreliable which is why you need to make significant alterations

Yes I understoob buddy. Thats what I meant. Imagine if u want to test two vaccines. At least lets say : to check which one is more efficient. With no details. And you applied the study on mice only. Wont it give you a general idea about the  results ? 

[Herpes go away 190]

On 6/16/2017 at 4:18 AM, OhFuckMyDickHurts said:

Yes it's because................. Science!

LMFAO.

I've heard better explanations how cooties work from kindergarteners.

trust me these folks r bogus .. they said they will get the vaccine out in april and now they r hiding and are asking us to wait .. they cant even say that the vaccine will be avialble by years end .. and trust me this guy who has invested money in the company claims that this vaccine works .. there was this other person who got unbearable side effects from the vaccine so maybe that is y they want to bypass fda trials 

[OFMDH 834]

16 hours ago, Herpes go away said:

trust me these folks r bogus .. they said they will get the vaccine out in april and now they r hiding and are asking us to wait .. they cant even say that the vaccine will be avialble by years end .. and trust me this guy who has invested money in the company claims that this vaccine works .. there was this other person who got unbearable side effects from the vaccine so maybe that is y they want to bypass fda trials 

We definitely were not given the full picture when joining the trial. 

He made this public in in his Perspective article pg 41 that he gave himself in total 11 shots/boosters  (1 shot then 3 double shot boosters and after it wore off another 4 double shots) before the St. Kitts trial.  Again he knew before the trial it would wear off and omitted that fact when we joined.

He later admitted when we were there for the second shot it had no durability but maybe it could for us..... BS, the fact we had a pre-existing infection would mean the virus would be partially neutralized by the Ab's we already had from the wild infection so any response would be even weaker than his.

 

A graph of someone who already has HSV2 is not going to show much of an increase.

Edited June 19, 2017 by OhFuckMyDickHurts

[WilsoInAus 2,466]

Well I admit I cannot believe why a vaccine would be tested on people already infected. But what does it do for those who are not?

[Cas9 1,602]

14 minutes ago, WilsoInAus said:

Well I admit I cannot believe why a vaccine would be tested on people already infected. But what does it do for those who are not?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. If the vaccine is therapeutic, then it needs to be tested on someone who already has HSV.

[WilsoInAus 2,466]

The primary purpose of a vaccine when it comes to viruses is prevention. There are no FDA approved therapeutic vaccines against viruses. Therapeutic vaccines are to date of limited effectiveness against what they are targeting. It just strikes me as more sensible to develop a preventative vaccine for approval and use and if it has therapeutic benefit then that's superb. Further, a therapeutic vaccine has material implications for maybe 1-2% of people with HSV-2 say, yet 100% of people who do not. That would ensure faster payback, bigger investment and benefit from a vaccine for all sooner!

[Cas9 1,602]

3 minutes ago, WilsoInAus said:

The primary purpose of a vaccine when it comes to viruses is prevention. There are no FDA approved therapeutic vaccines against viruses. Therapeutic vaccines are to date of limited effectiveness against what they are targeting. It just strikes me as more sensible to develop a preventative vaccine for approval and use and if it has therapeutic benefit then that's superb. Further, a therapeutic vaccine has material implications for maybe 1-2% of people with HSV-2 say, yet 100% of people who do not. That would ensure faster payback, bigger investment and benefit from a vaccine for all sooner!

They can do both; therapeutic and prophylactic. Certainly, a therapeutic vaccine, if effective, would help alleviate the physical suffering and reduce the likelihood of transmission in the absence of a prophylactic.

[WilsoInAus 2,466]

Not extensively, but nothing I have written is incorrect, is it?

[Herpes go away 190]

there has been a person who fell terribly ill after  getting the vax and u just advocate the use of this shit vax ? if halford isnt well with all due respect arent there other scientists and doctors to csrry forward his research ? this lame reason doesnt justify as to y compassionate sales were not done .. im not saying whateever happened to bill is right .. its unfortunate and i respect his work but u guys coming up with the line that the sales didnt happen coz.he is not well really doesnt make sense  

this shit vaccine doesnt work anywhich ways .. try investing in ademedus or genocea which seem to be a better option

[WilsoInAus 2,466]

15 minutes ago, SupermansJustice said:

"Therapeutic vaccines are to date of limited effectiveness against what they are targeting. "

Yes. This is very incorrect. Many in the pipeline with more than "limited" effectiveness.

Like what? As you say, they are all pipeline and not approved as yet.

[RVX Patient and Investor 1,396]

1 hour ago, Herpes go away said:

there has been a person who fell terribly ill after  getting the vax and u just advocate the use of this shit vax ? if halford isnt well with all due respect arent there other scientists and doctors to csrry forward his research ? this lame reason doesnt justify as to y compassionate sales were not done .. im not saying whateever happened to bill is right .. its unfortunate and i respect his work but u guys coming up with the line that the sales didnt happen coz.he is not well really doesnt make sense  

this shit vaccine doesnt work anywhich ways .. try investing in ademedus or genocea which seem to be a better option

Yeah, dying, terrible excuse.

Someone has to make the doses, and it ain't no dunkin donuts mister hyder!

How about u go away?  Unbelievable attitude towards people actually doing the work to help.

[WilsoInAus 2,466]

1 hour ago, SupermansJustice said:

So? The field of immunotherapeutic vaccines has only recently exploded in the last few years. There's one I think you've heard of. It's called GEN-003

Yes we have all heard of it, less effective than antivirals!

[WilsoInAus 2,466]

Isn't there just so much to learn!

Conclusion: There is no apparent advantage of GEN-003 over valacyclovir (Valtrex)—the standard of care for treating and preventing outbreaks. That's been known for quite a while.

[WilsoInAus 2,466]

1 minute ago, SupermansJustice said:

Maybe you should read my conversation with him where I teach him!

I don't understand, teach him what? Is he a slow learner?

[WilsoInAus 2,466]

Respond to what? You make a few unsubstantiated statements that do nothing to change the point. Most if not all vaccines will have limitations on a therapeutic basis as they attempt to stimulate and already stimulated immune system. In the case of Gen003 it has not been shown at this time to be any benefit over antivirals.

[WilsoInAus 2,466]

Oh people do take me seriously, there are tons of sources. And you know this to be true, do you have point you wish to make?

Can you provide a source please that shows GEN003 exceeds antivirals in general effectiveness?

[WilsoInAus 2,466]

I have thank you, that is the conclusion. If you think different then please explain otherwise this is boring.

[Rational Vaxxer 1,543]

On 6/18/2017 at 7:22 PM, WilsoInAus said:

The primary purpose of a vaccine when it comes to viruses is prevention. There are no FDA approved therapeutic vaccines against viruses. Therapeutic vaccines are to date of limited effectiveness against what they are targeting. It just strikes me as more sensible to develop a preventative vaccine for approval and use and if it has therapeutic benefit then that's superb. Further, a therapeutic vaccine has material implications for maybe 1-2% of people with HSV-2 say, yet 100% of people who do not. That would ensure faster payback, bigger investment and benefit from a vaccine for all sooner!

 Dr. Halford has created a therapeutic vaccine and a prophylactic vaccine 

[Rational Vaxxer 1,543]

16 hours ago, WilsoInAus said:

Oh people do take me seriously, there are tons of sources. And you know this to be true, do you have point you wish to make?

Can you provide a source please that shows GEN003 exceeds antivirals in general effectiveness?

 They can't show that GEN003 exceeds antivirals in general.... because it doesn't   

[WilsoInAus 2,466]

7 minutes ago, Rational Vaxxer said:

 Dr. Halford has created a therapeutic vaccine and a prophylactic vaccine 

Yes I know and that's the point isn't it. Why not test and get the prophylactic vaccine approved? It is a better sell for investors and probably only has to reduce transmission probabilities by 75%+ for it to be successful! This is concurrent approval for the therapeutic that can have less efficacy than if it has to stand alone as a therapeutic. That doesn't make sense of course, just the way it happens.

[Rational Vaxxer 1,543]

3 minutes ago, WilsoInAus said:

Yes I know and that's the point isn't it. Why not test and get the prophylactic vaccine approved? It is a better sell for investors and probably only has to reduce transmission probabilities by 75%+ for it to be successful! This is concurrent approval for the therapeutic that can have less efficacy than if it has to stand alone as a therapeutic. That doesn't make sense of course, just the way it happens.

 Actually there's a very good reason and Dr. Halford went through this on his blog.  To sum up, he wanted to help people who are suffering in the worst way first.  That was the most important goal.  If you talk to these people as much as I have and see the suffering that they go through you would understand why that was more important than providing the prophylactic vaccine first.   Besides, proving the therapeutic vaccine to work first is easier than proving the prophylactic.  At least to the main public