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Divon

Argine vs Lysine what is proven?

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Divon

Alright so this has been confusing me as hell and I feel that I just need to know what is right and what is not because its driving me mad.
As you know there is science suggesting that Lysine has not proven to have an effect and especially not for GHSV2, while other science suggests that it has blabla.

But let´s talk about the logic around it. First of all I assume its scientifically proven that the virus uses argine to replicate and/or build up a shield? That leads to the next question is it proven that Lysine works against the argine in the body?
If Lysine does not work then that would mean that lysine to argine ratio in food would be irrelevant and the only thing that would matter is how little argine you eat, not the ratio with lysine.

So help me solve this, because it is not making any sense at all.

PS: Your experience with taking lysine / managing argine ratios is welcome here but the main topic is the science behind it.

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WilsoInAus

It was thought for a while that arginine promoted the replication of herpes. Eventually studies emerged that arginine actually impeded replication!

The current wisdom as promoted in reputable medical sources including the Journal of Virology is that arginine has no impact on the replication of the herpes virus.

Studies confirm this with the majority showing that outbreaks are not correlated to diets with differing arginine to lysine ratios.

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Divon

So its also untrue that the virus uses argine as a barrier? This just sounds so strange to me, how could they be so wrong? Please link whatever you have on this.

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diablo604
3 hours ago, WilsoInAus said:

Studies confirm this with the majority showing that outbreaks are not correlated to diets with differing arginine to lysine ratios.

Does this mean that there is no therapeutic benefit to taking Lysine supplements?

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WilsoInAus
4 hours ago, Divon said:

So its also untrue that the virus uses argine as a barrier? This just sounds so strange to me, how could they be so wrong? Please link whatever you have on this.

The studies from the 1960s were in the Petrie dish and not in humans. There were mixed outcomes with some studies indicating replication was both enhanced and impaired by arginine.

Studies since 2010 such as https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3126512/#!po=20.5882

are indicating that arginine is playing no role.

Even if it did, we ingest about 5 to 8g of arginine a day but 20 to 30g of lysine.What impact would 0.5 to 1g of manufactured lysine supplement actually do?.

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friendlyboy
5 hours ago, WilsoInAus said:

The studies from the 1960s were in the Petrie dish and not in humans. There were mixed outcomes with some studies indicating replication was both enhanced and impaired by arginine.

Studies since 2010 such as https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3126512/#!po=20.5882

are indicating that arginine is playing no role.

Even if it did, we ingest about 5 to 8g of arginine a day but 20 to 30g of lysine.What impact would 0.5 to 1g of manufactured lysine supplement actually do?.

What!!!!!!???

Please, stop spreading nonsense. Where did you get those numbers? Not even eating dairy products only, the food with the highest lysine:arginine ratio, you would get such a crazy ratio. The average adult diet with high lysine foods (meat, fish, dairy) supplies 6–10 g/day of lysine and about 6 g of arginine.

11 hours ago, Divon said:

But let´s talk about the logic around it. First of all I assume its scientifically proven that the virus uses argine to replicate and/or build up a shield? That leads to the next question is it proven that Lysine works against the argine in the body?
If Lysine does not work then that would mean that lysine to argine ratio in food would be irrelevant and the only thing that would matter is how little argine you eat, not the ratio with lysine.

Yes, hsv depends on arginine to replicate. There is some recent in-vitro research for new antivirals using arginasa (an enzyme that breaks down arginine)

Lysine is an essential aminoacid highly conserved in the body that can substitute arginine, meaning that any lysine you get must come from food and the body will prefer lysine to arginine. If there too much lysine and arginine available, the body will break down arginine (increasing urea in blood). Lysine also competes with arginine for absorption in the gut, and into neurons.

Anyway, evidence of lysine supplementation working against hsv is very poor and dated

and a 2015 Cochrane review failed to find evidence of efficacy

My own anecdotal evidence, for what is worth, is that any purported effect of lysine supplementation (3 g/day) on ghsv2, while keeping a high or balanced lysine:arginine ratio, is negligible. I haven't run any experiments on low lysine:arginine ratio.

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LatentBloomer

I believe at least one member has posted a study on the purported efficacy of glutamine supplements on reducing Hsv2 OBs...in guinea pigs. Not sure if humans reap the same benefits. 

While scrolling through older posts I found that another member recommended incorporating high levels of dairy into the diet to suppress OBs and combat nerve pain but they didn't specify which strain they had. I've read that lysine is more effective for HSV1, but could not find a study to support that. 

I think most of this is unique to the individual.

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JohnnyT

I've been a cold sore sufferer my whole life.  I have found over the years that tomatoes, since they are very high in lysine, are helpful in keeping cold sores to a minimum.  I just need to remember to keep eating them.  :D

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WilsoInAus
1 hour ago, friendlyboy said:

What!!!!!!???

Please, stop spreading nonsense. Where did you get those numbers? Not even eating dairy products only, the food with the highest lysine:arginine ratio, you would get such a crazy ratio. The average adult diet with high lysine foods (meat, fish, dairy) supplies 6–10 g/day of lysine and about 6 g of arginine.

Yes, hsv depends on arginine to replicate. There is some recent in-vitro research for new antivirals using arginasa (an enzyme that breaks down arginine)

Lysine is an essential aminoacid highly conserved in the body that can substitute arginine, meaning that any lysine you get must come from food and the body will prefer lysine to arginine. If there too much lysine and arginine available, the body will break down arginine (increasing urea in blood). Lysine also competes with arginine for absorption in the gut, and into neurons.

Anyway, evidence of lysine supplementation working against hsv is very poor and dated

and a 2015 Cochrane review failed to find evidence of efficacy

My own anecdotal evidence, for what is worth, is that any purported effect of lysine supplementation (3 g/day) on ghsv2, while keeping a high or balanced lysine:arginine ratio, is negligible. I haven't run any experiments on low lysine:arginine ratio.

Please look up lysine tables....

there is 10g of lysine in lean beef portion alone!

An egg hasn’t 1g of lysine and a serving of vegetables has 2-10g of lysine depending on content.

Most adults consume over 20g of lysine a day... where do your figures come from?

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friendlyboy
18 minutes ago, WilsoInAus said:

Please look up lysine tables....

there is 10g of lysine in lean beef portion alone!

An egg hasn’t 1g of lysine and a serving of vegetables has 2-10g of lysine depending on content.

Most adults consume over 20g of lysine a day... where do your figures come from?

I think you must have got wrong tables. What tables do you use?

These are the ones I use:

http://www.fao.org/docrep/005/AC854T/AC854T00.htm#TOC

A 100 g beef portion contains 1.57 g of lysine and 1.1 g of arginine

Figures for global consumption:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3117869

 

 

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WilsoInAus

That paper is 30 years old! Since then they have realised that lysine content was significantly underestimated. It is now established for example that there is well over 2.0g of lysine per 100g of average beef. As I say a 250g serve of lean beef is today measured as having 10g of lysine.

https://www.healthaliciousness.com/articles/high-lysine-foods.php

 

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friendlyboy
2 hours ago, WilsoInAus said:

That paper is 30 years old!

So what? Food aminoacid content hasn't changed.

2 hours ago, WilsoInAus said:

Since then they have realised that lysine content was significantly underestimated. 

I think you are making this up. References?

2 hours ago, WilsoInAus said:

It is now established for example that there is well over 2.0g of lysine per 100g of average beef. As I say a 250g serve of lean beef is today measured as having 10g of lysine.

Lets check a couple of entries in the 2015 USDA Database...

Beef, brisket, flat half, boneless, separable lean and fat, trimmed to 0" fat, choice, raw .... 1.76 g lysine/100g, 1.33 g arginine/100g

Beef, chuck eye roast, boneless, America's Beef Roast, separable lean and fat, trimmed to 0" fat, all grades, raw ..... 1.68 g lysine/100g, 1.26 g arginine/100g

Egg, whole, raw, fresh ... 0.91, 0.82

All raw beef products in the USDA Database but 2 are under 2 g lysine/100g.

In pretty good agreement with the FAO Data

Now, do you realize that, from your own source, it is 10 g lysine for 300 g of lean beef roasted, not raw? Do you think people eat 600 g of lean roasted meat every day?

Endurance athletes, who need a high protein diet to avoid muscle loss due to catabolism, eat no more than 2 g/kg*day of protein; the average person needs no more than 0.8 g/kg*day. That's overall protein, from meat, dairy and vegetables. Now, the highest content in lysine in any protein is about 10%, for a 70 kg average adult that makes 56 g of protein -> about 5.6 g of lysine, for an endurance athlete it would be 140 g of protein -> 14 g of lysine.

Another back of the envelope calculation: An average adult needs a 2000 kcal/day diet, 20% of that energy comes from proteins, that's 400 kcal, 1 g protein is 4 kcal, so the 2000 kcal diet has 100 g protein, at most 10% of it is lysine, therefore an average adult eats 10 g/day lysine at most.

 

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Divon
On 2017-11-09 at 8:50 PM, JohnnyT said:

I've been a cold sore sufferer my whole life.  I have found over the years that tomatoes, since they are very high in lysine, are helpful in keeping cold sores to a minimum.  I just need to remember to keep eating them.  :D

I once heard that tomatoes are bad to eat because they contain something that provokes outbreaks. Not sure what to believe anymore.

Anyway lets try to make some conclusions about this thread... Argine affecting replication is not entirely proven but sort of proven? Lysine from supplements is worse than lysine from food?

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Sanguine108

Well, here's what you do.  Stop looking at literature and test it out yourself.   Get some Lysine and Arginine supplements and take varying doses and see if they affect you.

Lysine does help abate/suppress my symptoms so I don't need to convince myself as to whether or not it's a thing.

omg, Vishnu is so damn chill!

vishnu chillin.jpg

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Divon
On 2017-11-11 at 12:18 PM, Sanguine108 said:

Well, here's what you do.  Stop looking at literature and test it out yourself.   Get some Lysine and Arginine supplements and take varying doses and see if they affect you.

Lysine does help abate/suppress my symptoms so I don't need to convince myself as to whether or not it's a thing.

Haha obviously I´ve already tried it :). Problem is that it is more or less impossible for a single individual to determine if something works or not unless it has a huge and very obvious impact. It is very easy to drive your mind insane that way, therefore its better to try to understand the science behind it and find studies with higher sample size than 1 person.

For what its worth I have not noticed any great impact with Lysine supplements though. I fail to see how science cant just give us a direct answer if argine affects the replication or not. That really makes me worry over how little is being invested in researching this virus.

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Sanguine108
3 hours ago, Divon said:

Problem is that it is more or less impossible for a single individual to determine if something works or not unless it has a huge and very obvious impact. It is very easy to drive your mind insane that way, therefore its better to try to understand the science behind it and find studies with higher sample size than 1 person.

Yeah, there are more factors involved, for sure.   Lysine is definitely a nutritional-food level 'remedy'.   The time when I was paying close attention to whether or not it worked, I felt that it took at least an hour to experience anything.   Typically formulas that treat a condition are treating from different angles.   There's a formula called Lysine Extra from Vitanica. (I'm not trying to promote this product but I made a general breakdown of the herb actions.)

- Vit C (40mg) + Zinc (30mg) - immune; co-factor supplement
- Lysine (800 mg) - antagonize/competes with arginine, which help stop hsv replication; helps with tissue repair
- St. John’s Wort (120mg) - HSV antiviral, regenerates/heal nerve damage, heals post-herpetic neuralgia, clears inflammation, immune tonic, analgesic/pain relief. (nervine)
- Lemon Balm (110mg) - antiviral to HSV, regenerates and soothes nerves (nervine)
- Astragalus (110mg) - Immune tonic increasing antibodies and WBCs for cleaning up virus, regenerates/heals flesh/skin, energy tonic
- Oregon Grape Root (110mg) - Clears inflammation, enhances lymphatic flow, enhances blood circulation to spleen (major lymph organ)

- Myrrh gum (50mg) - helps move stagnation, regenerates flesh

Most of these are Chinese herbs that have a recorded history of use dating back over 5k years and their effects aren't "food grade" like Lysine.  Idk, Lysine is like sub-food grade.   Astragalus is a major immune tonic and oregon grape is a very cold(anti-inflammatory) herb.   Oregon grape is similar to goldenseal.

Each herb has an affinity to different areas of the body. some work generally/systemically... this is herbalism 101 stuff.   Fortunately and unfortunately, I feel that this formula is better suited for people with oral herpes.  You're taking it orally for one, the main herbs are targeting the upper body or they're the aerial parts of the plant (so they're going to affect the aerial parts of the body... but not always).

I have oral and genital hsv and my oral symptoms, in the beginning, were more of a problem than the genital so this formula helped me out there.

3 hours ago, Divon said:

I fail to see how science cant just give us a direct answer if argine affects the replication or not.

There's no money to made so why waste time and money proving or disproving something that probably has a very minor role in the process.   As someone who has done some benchwork research in the past, reading a lot of studies that people post gives me a headache.   An science journalism article is posted but when you read the literature it's the most anticlimatic bs ever.   Conversely, I read an article that isn't all ringing and dingling about how amazing some research is, read the article to think it's the most brilliant piece of research yet.   There's research that's poorly done and IT IS A REALITY where labs publish shit results or give negative reviews about a "competitor".   So then it becomes a popularity contest which ruins the objectivity of it.

Anyhow, I worked in ecotoxicology and experienced companies publishing results fitting their agenda that an independent lab would replicate and get different results.  Pharmaceutical companies do that.  I want to believe it still doesn't happen but the toxicology reports of older drugs blows my mind.    At the same time, it's a somewhat recent idea that a compound that doesn't harm a fullsize adult will harm a developing fetus or an infant.   ...but more so the developing fetus.

Anyways, Lysine is like molecular level remedy that doesn't have a motive force of clearing or moving.  Some people's symptoms are too gross/major to be affected by something so weak.  Yeah, the topic of health, anatomy and physiology from a modern medical to a traditional perspective can create a fuller picture as to what to do with certain biological situations but there comes a point where ya just gotta trial n' error what looks safe based on the information provided.

So in the beginning I was trying different 'remedies'.  I came across Biogetica's herbal formula.  And it worked better than the other things I had tried at the time.  Investigating the ingredients, the major herb in the formula was St. John's Wort (Hypericum mysorinse... basically SJW variety that grows in Mysore, India).  I was curious and wanted to try a more potent form of St. John's Wort (aka Hypericum perforatum) and found a company that extracted SJW in liquid glycerine within capsules.   With dried herbs it can be difficult at times to have consistent potency/quality but the glycerine extract made that easier.  I tried it and was blown away. Night and day effects from the dried, powdered capsules.

With Lysine, something more recently, I tried powdered capsules of Lysine as opposed to pressed tablets.   I really can't tell a different between the two but I still stand by Lysine having a mitigating effect on hsv symptoms.   It may not be for people with intense symptoms but that just means something different is needed or the equation for relief isn't yet complete.

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Divon

Thats a pretty good post. I cant entirely agree with the no profit to be made thing explaining my doubt though. I mean we have discovered how the herpes virus sleeps and wakes up, we should know all the substances it uses etc. Meaning if its as an example true that argine is used as a barrier for the virus to protect itself or something like that then we should probably just know that from looking at it in a microscope or whatever no?

As you can tell Im not entirely sure how this process works.

Good list by the way, which of all of these things are you the most impressed with? St Johns Wort?

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