Jump to content
World's Largest Herpes Support Group
Divon

Argine vs Lysine what is proven?

Recommended Posts

Divon

Alright so this has been confusing me as hell and I feel that I just need to know what is right and what is not because its driving me mad.
As you know there is science suggesting that Lysine has not proven to have an effect and especially not for GHSV2, while other science suggests that it has blabla.

But let´s talk about the logic around it. First of all I assume its scientifically proven that the virus uses argine to replicate and/or build up a shield? That leads to the next question is it proven that Lysine works against the argine in the body?
If Lysine does not work then that would mean that lysine to argine ratio in food would be irrelevant and the only thing that would matter is how little argine you eat, not the ratio with lysine.

So help me solve this, because it is not making any sense at all.

PS: Your experience with taking lysine / managing argine ratios is welcome here but the main topic is the science behind it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
WilsoInAus

It was thought for a while that arginine promoted the replication of herpes. Eventually studies emerged that arginine actually impeded replication!

The current wisdom as promoted in reputable medical sources including the Journal of Virology is that arginine has no impact on the replication of the herpes virus.

Studies confirm this with the majority showing that outbreaks are not correlated to diets with differing arginine to lysine ratios.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Divon

So its also untrue that the virus uses argine as a barrier? This just sounds so strange to me, how could they be so wrong? Please link whatever you have on this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
diablo604
3 hours ago, WilsoInAus said:

Studies confirm this with the majority showing that outbreaks are not correlated to diets with differing arginine to lysine ratios.

Does this mean that there is no therapeutic benefit to taking Lysine supplements?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
WilsoInAus
4 hours ago, Divon said:

So its also untrue that the virus uses argine as a barrier? This just sounds so strange to me, how could they be so wrong? Please link whatever you have on this.

The studies from the 1960s were in the Petrie dish and not in humans. There were mixed outcomes with some studies indicating replication was both enhanced and impaired by arginine.

Studies since 2010 such as https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3126512/#!po=20.5882

are indicating that arginine is playing no role.

Even if it did, we ingest about 5 to 8g of arginine a day but 20 to 30g of lysine.What impact would 0.5 to 1g of manufactured lysine supplement actually do?.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
friendlyboy
5 hours ago, WilsoInAus said:

The studies from the 1960s were in the Petrie dish and not in humans. There were mixed outcomes with some studies indicating replication was both enhanced and impaired by arginine.

Studies since 2010 such as https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3126512/#!po=20.5882

are indicating that arginine is playing no role.

Even if it did, we ingest about 5 to 8g of arginine a day but 20 to 30g of lysine.What impact would 0.5 to 1g of manufactured lysine supplement actually do?.

What!!!!!!???

Please, stop spreading nonsense. Where did you get those numbers? Not even eating dairy products only, the food with the highest lysine:arginine ratio, you would get such a crazy ratio. The average adult diet with high lysine foods (meat, fish, dairy) supplies 6–10 g/day of lysine and about 6 g of arginine.

11 hours ago, Divon said:

But let´s talk about the logic around it. First of all I assume its scientifically proven that the virus uses argine to replicate and/or build up a shield? That leads to the next question is it proven that Lysine works against the argine in the body?
If Lysine does not work then that would mean that lysine to argine ratio in food would be irrelevant and the only thing that would matter is how little argine you eat, not the ratio with lysine.

Yes, hsv depends on arginine to replicate. There is some recent in-vitro research for new antivirals using arginasa (an enzyme that breaks down arginine)

Lysine is an essential aminoacid highly conserved in the body that can substitute arginine, meaning that any lysine you get must come from food and the body will prefer lysine to arginine. If there too much lysine and arginine available, the body will break down arginine (increasing urea in blood). Lysine also competes with arginine for absorption in the gut, and into neurons.

Anyway, evidence of lysine supplementation working against hsv is very poor and dated

and a 2015 Cochrane review failed to find evidence of efficacy

My own anecdotal evidence, for what is worth, is that any purported effect of lysine supplementation (3 g/day) on ghsv2, while keeping a high or balanced lysine:arginine ratio, is negligible. I haven't run any experiments on low lysine:arginine ratio.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
LatentBloomer

I believe at least one member has posted a study on the purported efficacy of glutamine supplements on reducing Hsv2 OBs...in guinea pigs. Not sure if humans reap the same benefits. 

While scrolling through older posts I found that another member recommended incorporating high levels of dairy into the diet to suppress OBs and combat nerve pain but they didn't specify which strain they had. I've read that lysine is more effective for HSV1, but could not find a study to support that. 

I think most of this is unique to the individual.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JohnnyT

I've been a cold sore sufferer my whole life.  I have found over the years that tomatoes, since they are very high in lysine, are helpful in keeping cold sores to a minimum.  I just need to remember to keep eating them.  :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
WilsoInAus
1 hour ago, friendlyboy said:

What!!!!!!???

Please, stop spreading nonsense. Where did you get those numbers? Not even eating dairy products only, the food with the highest lysine:arginine ratio, you would get such a crazy ratio. The average adult diet with high lysine foods (meat, fish, dairy) supplies 6–10 g/day of lysine and about 6 g of arginine.

Yes, hsv depends on arginine to replicate. There is some recent in-vitro research for new antivirals using arginasa (an enzyme that breaks down arginine)

Lysine is an essential aminoacid highly conserved in the body that can substitute arginine, meaning that any lysine you get must come from food and the body will prefer lysine to arginine. If there too much lysine and arginine available, the body will break down arginine (increasing urea in blood). Lysine also competes with arginine for absorption in the gut, and into neurons.

Anyway, evidence of lysine supplementation working against hsv is very poor and dated

and a 2015 Cochrane review failed to find evidence of efficacy

My own anecdotal evidence, for what is worth, is that any purported effect of lysine supplementation (3 g/day) on ghsv2, while keeping a high or balanced lysine:arginine ratio, is negligible. I haven't run any experiments on low lysine:arginine ratio.

Please look up lysine tables....

there is 10g of lysine in lean beef portion alone!

An egg hasn’t 1g of lysine and a serving of vegetables has 2-10g of lysine depending on content.

Most adults consume over 20g of lysine a day... where do your figures come from?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
friendlyboy
18 minutes ago, WilsoInAus said:

Please look up lysine tables....

there is 10g of lysine in lean beef portion alone!

An egg hasn’t 1g of lysine and a serving of vegetables has 2-10g of lysine depending on content.

Most adults consume over 20g of lysine a day... where do your figures come from?

I think you must have got wrong tables. What tables do you use?

These are the ones I use:

http://www.fao.org/docrep/005/AC854T/AC854T00.htm#TOC

A 100 g beef portion contains 1.57 g of lysine and 1.1 g of arginine

Figures for global consumption:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3117869

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
WilsoInAus

That paper is 30 years old! Since then they have realised that lysine content was significantly underestimated. It is now established for example that there is well over 2.0g of lysine per 100g of average beef. As I say a 250g serve of lean beef is today measured as having 10g of lysine.

https://www.healthaliciousness.com/articles/high-lysine-foods.php

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
friendlyboy
2 hours ago, WilsoInAus said:

That paper is 30 years old!

So what? Food aminoacid content hasn't changed.

2 hours ago, WilsoInAus said:

Since then they have realised that lysine content was significantly underestimated. 

I think you are making this up. References?

2 hours ago, WilsoInAus said:

It is now established for example that there is well over 2.0g of lysine per 100g of average beef. As I say a 250g serve of lean beef is today measured as having 10g of lysine.

Lets check a couple of entries in the 2015 USDA Database...

Beef, brisket, flat half, boneless, separable lean and fat, trimmed to 0" fat, choice, raw .... 1.76 g lysine/100g, 1.33 g arginine/100g

Beef, chuck eye roast, boneless, America's Beef Roast, separable lean and fat, trimmed to 0" fat, all grades, raw ..... 1.68 g lysine/100g, 1.26 g arginine/100g

Egg, whole, raw, fresh ... 0.91, 0.82

All raw beef products in the USDA Database but 2 are under 2 g lysine/100g.

In pretty good agreement with the FAO Data

Now, do you realize that, from your own source, it is 10 g lysine for 300 g of lean beef roasted, not raw? Do you think people eat 600 g of lean roasted meat every day?

Endurance athletes, who need a high protein diet to avoid muscle loss due to catabolism, eat no more than 2 g/kg*day of protein; the average person needs no more than 0.8 g/kg*day. That's overall protein, from meat, dairy and vegetables. Now, the highest content in lysine in any protein is about 10%, for a 70 kg average adult that makes 56 g of protein -> about 5.6 g of lysine, for an endurance athlete it would be 140 g of protein -> 14 g of lysine.

Another back of the envelope calculation: An average adult needs a 2000 kcal/day diet, 20% of that energy comes from proteins, that's 400 kcal, 1 g protein is 4 kcal, so the 2000 kcal diet has 100 g protein, at most 10% of it is lysine, therefore an average adult eats 10 g/day lysine at most.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Divon
On 2017-11-09 at 8:50 PM, JohnnyT said:

I've been a cold sore sufferer my whole life.  I have found over the years that tomatoes, since they are very high in lysine, are helpful in keeping cold sores to a minimum.  I just need to remember to keep eating them.  :D

I once heard that tomatoes are bad to eat because they contain something that provokes outbreaks. Not sure what to believe anymore.

Anyway lets try to make some conclusions about this thread... Argine affecting replication is not entirely proven but sort of proven? Lysine from supplements is worse than lysine from food?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sanguine108

Well, here's what you do.  Stop looking at literature and test it out yourself.   Get some Lysine and Arginine supplements and take varying doses and see if they affect you.

Lysine does help abate/suppress my symptoms so I don't need to convince myself as to whether or not it's a thing.

omg, Vishnu is so damn chill!

vishnu chillin.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Divon
On 2017-11-11 at 12:18 PM, Sanguine108 said:

Well, here's what you do.  Stop looking at literature and test it out yourself.   Get some Lysine and Arginine supplements and take varying doses and see if they affect you.

Lysine does help abate/suppress my symptoms so I don't need to convince myself as to whether or not it's a thing.

Haha obviously I´ve already tried it :). Problem is that it is more or less impossible for a single individual to determine if something works or not unless it has a huge and very obvious impact. It is very easy to drive your mind insane that way, therefore its better to try to understand the science behind it and find studies with higher sample size than 1 person.

For what its worth I have not noticed any great impact with Lysine supplements though. I fail to see how science cant just give us a direct answer if argine affects the replication or not. That really makes me worry over how little is being invested in researching this virus.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sanguine108
3 hours ago, Divon said:

Problem is that it is more or less impossible for a single individual to determine if something works or not unless it has a huge and very obvious impact. It is very easy to drive your mind insane that way, therefore its better to try to understand the science behind it and find studies with higher sample size than 1 person.

Yeah, there are more factors involved, for sure.   Lysine is definitely a nutritional-food level 'remedy'.   The time when I was paying close attention to whether or not it worked, I felt that it took at least an hour to experience anything.   Typically formulas that treat a condition are treating from different angles.   There's a formula called Lysine Extra from Vitanica. (I'm not trying to promote this product but I made a general breakdown of the herb actions.)

- Vit C (40mg) + Zinc (30mg) - immune; co-factor supplement
- Lysine (800 mg) - antagonize/competes with arginine, which help stop hsv replication; helps with tissue repair
- St. John’s Wort (120mg) - HSV antiviral, regenerates/heal nerve damage, heals post-herpetic neuralgia, clears inflammation, immune tonic, analgesic/pain relief. (nervine)
- Lemon Balm (110mg) - antiviral to HSV, regenerates and soothes nerves (nervine)
- Astragalus (110mg) - Immune tonic increasing antibodies and WBCs for cleaning up virus, regenerates/heals flesh/skin, energy tonic
- Oregon Grape Root (110mg) - Clears inflammation, enhances lymphatic flow, enhances blood circulation to spleen (major lymph organ)

- Myrrh gum (50mg) - helps move stagnation, regenerates flesh

Most of these are Chinese herbs that have a recorded history of use dating back over 5k years and their effects aren't "food grade" like Lysine.  Idk, Lysine is like sub-food grade.   Astragalus is a major immune tonic and oregon grape is a very cold(anti-inflammatory) herb.   Oregon grape is similar to goldenseal.

Each herb has an affinity to different areas of the body. some work generally/systemically... this is herbalism 101 stuff.   Fortunately and unfortunately, I feel that this formula is better suited for people with oral herpes.  You're taking it orally for one, the main herbs are targeting the upper body or they're the aerial parts of the plant (so they're going to affect the aerial parts of the body... but not always).

I have oral and genital hsv and my oral symptoms, in the beginning, were more of a problem than the genital so this formula helped me out there.

3 hours ago, Divon said:

I fail to see how science cant just give us a direct answer if argine affects the replication or not.

There's no money to made so why waste time and money proving or disproving something that probably has a very minor role in the process.   As someone who has done some benchwork research in the past, reading a lot of studies that people post gives me a headache.   An science journalism article is posted but when you read the literature it's the most anticlimatic bs ever.   Conversely, I read an article that isn't all ringing and dingling about how amazing some research is, read the article to think it's the most brilliant piece of research yet.   There's research that's poorly done and IT IS A REALITY where labs publish shit results or give negative reviews about a "competitor".   So then it becomes a popularity contest which ruins the objectivity of it.

Anyhow, I worked in ecotoxicology and experienced companies publishing results fitting their agenda that an independent lab would replicate and get different results.  Pharmaceutical companies do that.  I want to believe it still doesn't happen but the toxicology reports of older drugs blows my mind.    At the same time, it's a somewhat recent idea that a compound that doesn't harm a fullsize adult will harm a developing fetus or an infant.   ...but more so the developing fetus.

Anyways, Lysine is like molecular level remedy that doesn't have a motive force of clearing or moving.  Some people's symptoms are too gross/major to be affected by something so weak.  Yeah, the topic of health, anatomy and physiology from a modern medical to a traditional perspective can create a fuller picture as to what to do with certain biological situations but there comes a point where ya just gotta trial n' error what looks safe based on the information provided.

So in the beginning I was trying different 'remedies'.  I came across Biogetica's herbal formula.  And it worked better than the other things I had tried at the time.  Investigating the ingredients, the major herb in the formula was St. John's Wort (Hypericum mysorinse... basically SJW variety that grows in Mysore, India).  I was curious and wanted to try a more potent form of St. John's Wort (aka Hypericum perforatum) and found a company that extracted SJW in liquid glycerine within capsules.   With dried herbs it can be difficult at times to have consistent potency/quality but the glycerine extract made that easier.  I tried it and was blown away. Night and day effects from the dried, powdered capsules.

With Lysine, something more recently, I tried powdered capsules of Lysine as opposed to pressed tablets.   I really can't tell a different between the two but I still stand by Lysine having a mitigating effect on hsv symptoms.   It may not be for people with intense symptoms but that just means something different is needed or the equation for relief isn't yet complete.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Divon

Thats a pretty good post. I cant entirely agree with the no profit to be made thing explaining my doubt though. I mean we have discovered how the herpes virus sleeps and wakes up, we should know all the substances it uses etc. Meaning if its as an example true that argine is used as a barrier for the virus to protect itself or something like that then we should probably just know that from looking at it in a microscope or whatever no?

As you can tell Im not entirely sure how this process works.

Good list by the way, which of all of these things are you the most impressed with? St Johns Wort?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Advertisement

Try a Lysine supplement for cold sores

  • The Hive is Thriving!

    • Total Topics
      68,843
    • Total Posts
      460,385
  • Posts

    • rareangel
      You really need to slow down or stop with your fear mongering. You are not deep in things of this nature as I am and we know the bottlenecks we face everytime we offer proof of what we have achieved as naturopaths. We are often rejected right at the door but does that stop us? Those who manage to accept us end up declaring what we do ineffective but later turn around and synthesize what we provided and began using it themselves simply because they believe they are more scientific than we are.   Much of conventional medicine was derived from nature and that should let you know that nature already holds most of the answers to our health but if anyone can easily get help from nature, then where is the money in it for big pharma? Diet alone does not handle hsv. I included a diet plan in my response to you but besides that, there is also the remedy which is most important. (This should let you know that I know what I am doing and saying) I did not come to this forum to play cloaks and daggers with anyone but to genuinely help. You should sound more encouraging and not judgemental. Hsv isn't a life sentence as many have been made to believe.
    • rareangel
      Thank you for posting our email conversation and also thank you for proving what I said about the mindset of people toward naturopaths especially when you suggested I could be a millionaire if I approached a scientific body.    If unscientific people such as you can easily be this judgemental and bigoted, how then do you think the truly scientific ones can be? Hsv is not as difficult as it is made to look. Indeed no illness is with the right treatment all illnesses that do not require surgery are easy. I run my own tests and have treated my own patients and have my own proofs. Surely you wouldn't expect me to forgo a patient confidentiality clause and release information on my patients to just about everybody do you?   If you were my patient would you want me to splash your details all over the web so anyone can have access to it?   People are afraid of what they do not understand so I understand your position and mindset but try not to label people from your position of insecurity. Not all of us are insecure.
    • Roja
      I am judgemental with people who try to take advantage of thousands of people, yes. Because I am sure some of them believe what you say and spend their savings in your "cure". And btw, I am a big fan of natural remedies. I believe that diet is one of the best ways to handle the virus. But I am also aware of the fact that it is up to now not possible to "delete" the virus. Maybe big pharma is trying to hide something, yes, but I don't think every single doctor and medical professional is lying to us. These people are professionals, they studied the human body for years. Do you really think all the doctors around the world would hide a "cure" like this for money?
    • Roja
      So you did not "just join this group".    So yeah, for everyone who is interested, I'll copy your e-mail:  "Good morning [name], The treatment for hsv from me lasts for a minimum of 3 months. The sequence of treatments goes thus 1) month 1 takes care of every symptom of hsv 2 you would ordinarily experience prior to or during an outbreak such as itchy/tingling sensation, feverish feelings and water retaining breakouts. 2) month 2 is the full body flush also done with one of my remedies which is pleasant tasting and calming to the body. This dislodges the virus from whatever nerve endings it has gone into and causes a weakening of the cell membrane in its envelope stage. 3) month 3 is a repeat of month one plus extra. The virus is killed off after the once impossible to penetrate cell membrane had been weakened and breached by the flush. Virus dies and patient at this stage would feel totally renewed and refreshed and free. Patient may experience an outbreak during the course of treatment which is expected but the appearance of the outbreak would prove patient is on track and doing well because the outbreak would be totally different from what used to be as I guarantee, no feverish feelings, no itch or tingling and no water retention in any rash that may appear. By the time we are done you can say goodbye to any form of breakouts be they stress triggered or not as you test negative. My remedy has zero side effects and works like a charm. Cost for each months treatment stands at $380. Patient has the option of running a monthly treatment thus paying monthly or paying for the entire 3 months and receiving all the remedies for the entire 3 months with directions on how to prepare them and the dose to take per time. Patient would also be required to keep in touch with me thus providing me with updates regarding progress reports so I can know if there is need to increase the dosage or leave it as it is. A diet plan would also be provided for the patient during the course of treatment. Long story short, I will work with patient for the entire 3 months of treatment up to the point of testing negative. Good morning once again. [Name]" So: 1) Not even one scientific proof. How should anyone believe your clients are "negative" if you can't prove?  2) 380 x 3 = 1140 $ for something that has no scientific proof at all AND moreover for something that up to now is IMPOSSIBLE. "This dislodges the virus from whatever nerve endings it has gone." Come on, that is impossible, as well as killing HSV from anyone's blood!  Again, you are a scam. And I feel so sad for all these desperate people who pay you a minimum of 1140$ for a treatment that doesn't work. 
    • rareangel
      The rule here says you should not be judgemental and you are already judgemental.   We are communicating via email and you got my permission to post whatever we discuss via email on this forum and I just sent you your first detailed reply and you are yet to post it here yet you have already labelled me a scam.  Do you now see why I said earlier that we naturopath's get the short end of the stick from skeptics like you?   I suggest you make amends to your post and stop being in a hurry to label everyone you see.
×

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.