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SADBE Experiences? Any Chemists or Immunologist here?


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Has anyone here been experimenting with SADBE? I have been. The first time was amazing, the best 4 months i've had in years...the second time I accidentally applied straight up SADBE (didn't realize the ACETONE had evaporated), after the second time, the good results came to an end and i've been back in hell....at the advice of Hugh McTavish I waited a couple months and reapplied a much more accurate 2% solution now that I know what I'm doing....it's only been 2 weeks so I don't know if it's going to help again. 

 

Does anyone know whats going on? Why would a 2% dilution be so miraculous but then an accidental mega dose be null? Will it work again? Is it possible that for some it's a one time one trick pony? Have I permanently tolerized myself? Would love for any knowledgable members to chime in...

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Just for clarification for others: On how to diluted the SADBE from 97-98% to 2%. I've found various protocols on this.

I decided to use an insulin syringe and go with the 0.2 ml SADBE, and 10 mL DMSO to come to about 2% even though DMSO has a higher density of 1.19, then SADBE. 

Link of information here: 

 

An alternative method could use a dropper to dilute as follows a

1 drop of SADBE is 0.0648 mL

47 drops of DMSO/ Acetone is 3.048 mL

Creating a 2% solution from 97% ordered.

I used the following calculators:

https://www.calkoo.com/en/solution-dilution-calculator

https://www.conversion-metric.org/volume/drop-to-milliliter

https://www.convertunits.com/from/g/to/ml

 

From there I determined 3 drops of dilution is 0.20 mL or 20 mg. Im not 100% on this way of dilution as I only have a gram scale and no pipet system. But it does sound reasonable. 

 

 

 

 

 

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Edited by JDMT_176
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Hi Kurdt-

I was thinking back in 2018-2019 there was several threads from viral frog that he was applying a 2% solution very frequently. Like several times a week. From what I gather- it didnt work for him at the time. I think too much applied caused immune chaos or something. 

The most recent Square X trial was terminated but this was the dosing frequency that was used in the trial below:

I was planning on using Group C protocol. Group A is most frequent.

Something to think about. 

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/results/NCT03521479?term=squarex&draw=1&rank=4

 

Protocol: 

Arm/Group Title Group A Group B Group C Group D
Hide Arm/Group Description

Treated with 2% Squaric Acid Dibutyl Ester (SADBE) on day 0 and with 2% SADBE on the visits at week 3, week 6, week 9, and month 8.

Squaric Acid Dibutyl Ester: Repeat topical application of 2% and 0.5% squaric acid dibutyl ester (SADBE) in subjects with frequent herpes labialis (4 or more episodes in the previous 12 months).

Treated with 2% Squaric Acid Dibutyl Ester (SADBE) on day 0 and with 0.5% SADBE on the visits at week 3, week 6, week 9, and month 8.

Squaric Acid Dibutyl Ester: Repeat topical application of 2% and 0.5% squaric acid dibutyl ester (SADBE) in subjects with frequent herpes labialis (4 or more episodes in the previous 12 months).

Treated with 2% Squaric Acid Dibutyl Ester (SADBE) on day 0, month 3, and month 6.

Squaric Acid Dibutyl Ester: Repeat topical application of 2% and 0.5% squaric acid dibutyl ester (SADBE) in subjects with frequent herpes labialis (4 or more episodes in the previous 12 months).

Treated with 2% Squaric Acid Dibutyl Ester (SADBE) on day 0 and month 6.

Squaric Acid Dibutyl Ester: Repeat topical application of 2% and 0.5% squaric acid dibutyl ester (SADBE) in subjects with frequent herpes labialis (4 or more episodes in the previous 12 months).

 

Adverse Reaction Table:

Arm/Group Title Group A Group B Group C Group D
Hide Arm/Group Description:

Treated with 2% Squaric Acid Dibutyl Ester (SADBE) on day 0 and with 2% SADBE on the visits at week 3, week 6, week 9, and month 8.

Squaric Acid Dibutyl Ester: Repeat topical application of 2% and 0.5% squaric acid dibutyl ester (SADBE) in subjects with frequent herpes labialis (4 or more episodes in the previous 12 months).

Treated with 2% Squaric Acid Dibutyl Ester (SADBE) on day 0 and with 0.5% SADBE on the visits at week 3, week 6, week 9, and month 8.

Squaric Acid Dibutyl Ester: Repeat topical application of 2% and 0.5% squaric acid dibutyl ester (SADBE) in subjects with frequent herpes labialis (4 or more episodes in the previous 12 months).

Treated with 2% Squaric Acid Dibutyl Ester (SADBE) on day 0, month 3, and month 6.

Squaric Acid Dibutyl Ester: Repeat topical application of 2% and 0.5% squaric acid dibutyl ester (SADBE) in subjects with frequent herpes labialis (4 or more episodes in the previous 12 months).

Treated with 2% Squaric Acid Dibutyl Ester (SADBE) on day 0 and month 6.

Squaric Acid Dibutyl Ester: Repeat topical application of 2% and 0.5% squaric acid dibutyl ester (SADBE) in subjects with frequent herpes labialis (4 or more episodes in the previous 12 months).

Overall Number of Participants Analyzed 10 10 10 10
Measure Type: Number
Unit of Measure: events
       
Localized reaction (rash, erythema, itching/pruritus, warmth/burning) at application site 24 14 17 6
Generalized adverse events (related, possible or greater) 2 3 1 0
Generalized adverse event (unrelated) 4 7 6 4

 

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If you want to know whats going on when applying it, this was the only study I found describing it. Hard to read through as very technical, but am copy paste parts I found of use. Tables also useful to show which genes are expressed more. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6416766/

 

"A petrolatum donut was applied with a cotton swab to form about a 1 cm diameter donut on skin on the inner aspect of the upper arm. Then a separate cotton swab was dipped in a 2% SADBE solution (w/v) in DMSO, and the swab was then used to apply about 10–20 mg of solution over about a 1 cm diameter circle within the petrolatum donut. Immediately after application, the application site was covered with TEGADERM. Subjects were advised to remove the TEGADERM and rinse and wipe the spot 3 h later.
 
"Thus in essentially every case, the SADBE treatment changed the group A subjects by day 57 to make them much more like the group B and C subjects who have better immune control of their HSV‐1 infection than the group A subjects were on day 1.
 
"Others have previously shown that CD8+ T cells are important in controlling herpes labialis outbreaks.23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 Our data are consistent with this. The helper/cytotoxic cell ratio (CD4+/CD8+ ratio) was 5.25 in group A versus 3.07 and 3.15, respectively in groups B and C (Table (Table3).3). The P‐value is less than 0.20 for comparisons of group A to both groups B and C, and if groups B and C are pooled and compared to group A the P‐value is 0.065, almost significant. This is consistent with prior evidence discussed below that CD8+ T cells are important and effective in controlling HSV recurrences.
 
"Consistent with our finding lower anti‐HSV‐1 IgG levels correlate with better control of HSV‐1 outbreaks, Spruance et al. also found lower serum anti‐HSV‐1 antibodies in HSV seropositive patients with a history of frequent herpes labialis than in seropositive persons with no history of herpes labialis.33
 
"Several prior reports also found IFN‐gamma to be important in controlling HSV infection and reducing HSV outbreaks. Dobbs et al28 showed that CD8+ T cells were able to clear an HSV‐2 infection in transgenic mice, but that efficacy was blocked in vivo by anti‐IFNG IgG. Liu et al31 showed that CD8+ T‐cells could prevent HSV‐1 reactivation from latency in excised trigeminal ganglia (TG), and that IFN‐gamma protein was produced by the CD8+ T cells, and that neutralization of IFN‐γ significantly enhanced the rate of HSV‐1 reactivation from latency in TG cultures. Spruance et al33 found that IFN‐gamma protein levels in PBMC supernatants stimulated with HSV‐1‐infected cell extracts were lower in frequent herpes labialis sufferers than HSV‐1 seropositive controls, consistent with the present result for IFNG gene expression in PBMC stimulated with heat‐killed HSV‐1. McKenna et al7 assayed IFN‐gamma in medium of PBMCs cultured in vitro and stimulated with inactivated HSV‐1 and found IFN‐gamma was at higher concentrations in medium of PBMCs from infrequent herpes labialis sufferers than frequent sufferers, also consistent with our findings. Cunningham et al34 showed higher interferon levels (including alpha, gamma, and lambda) in supernatants of PBMCs stimulated with heat‐killed HSV‐1 virus correlated with longer time to next herpes labialis recurrence. Carr et al35 showed that transgenic expression of IFNG could prevent HSV‐1 reactivation in a mouse model.
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Thanks for the replies @JDMT_176. Appreciate it. I’ve spoke with Hugh McTavish…. At least for him it has consistently worked with the 2% solution and he said he now only applies it about twice a year… I was concerned that it would stop working that herpes could learn to work around or we would somehow become Tolerant too it, Apparently that’s not the case at least for some people… Apparently dosage and frequency are crucial… Per his advice I reapplied a more accurate 2% solution recently so if it does kick in and start working again I’ll let you know… Like I said the first time I tried it it was amazing probably the best thing I’ve ever had in 20 years. Hopefully that wasn’t a fluke.

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My real concern is that is won’t work again…

 

.Thanks for the replies @JDMT_176. Appreciate it. I’ve spoke with Hugh McTavish…. At least for him it has consistently worked with the 2% solution and he said he now only applies it about twice a year… I was concerned that it would stop working that herpes could learn to work around or we would somehow become Tolerant too it, Apparently that’s not the case at least for some people… Apparently dosage and frequency are crucial… Per his advice I reapplied a more accurate 2% solution recently so if it does kick in and start working again I’ll let you know… Like I said the first time I tried it it was amazing probably the best thing I’ve ever had in 20 years. Hopefully that wasn’t a fluke.

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Here is some more information you can look up @Kurdt01

Interferon gamma (IFGN) is what showed the most marked increase in the study posted above." IFNG (a Th1 cytokine) was the gene (1) most consistently upregulated by a large amount in all three stimuli versus negative control;"  Its related to cell communication. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interferon_gamma

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interferon

HSV somehow interferes with this communication, which is why the OB goes un-noticed and untreated by our immune system. 

Virus resistance to interferons

"Many viruses have evolved mechanisms to resist interferon activity.[24]  They circumvent the IFN response by blocking downstream signaling events that occur after the cytokine binds to its receptor, by preventing further IFN production, and by inhibiting the functions of proteins that are induced by IFN.[25]  Viruses that inhibit IFN signaling include Japanese Encephalitis Virus (JEV), dengue type 2 virus (DEN-2), and viruses of the herpesvirus family, such as human cytomegalovirus (HCMV) and Kaposi's sarcoma-associated herpesvirus  (KSHV or HHV8).[25][26] Viral proteins proven to affect IFN signaling include EBV nuclear antigen 1 (EBNA1) and EBV nuclear antigen 2 (EBNA-2) from Epstein-Barr virus, the large T antigen of Polyomavirus, the E7 protein ofHuman papillomavirus (HPV), and the B18R protein of vaccinia virus.[26][27]  Reducing IFN-α activity may prevent signaling via  STAT1, STAT2,  or IRF9  (as with JEV infection) or through the JAK-STAT pathway (as with DEN-2 infection).[25]  Several poxviruses encode soluble IFN receptor homologs—like the B18R protein of the vaccinia virus—that bind to and prevent IFN interacting with its cellular receptor, impeding communication between this cytokine and its target cells.[27]  Some viruses can encode proteins that bind to double-stranded RNA (dsRNA) to prevent the activity of RNA-dependent protein kinases; this is the mechanism reovirus adopts using its sigma 3 (σ3) protein, and vaccinia virus employs using the gene product of its E3L gene, p25.[28][29][30] The ability of interferon to induce protein production from interferon stimulated genes (ISGs) can also be affected.  Production of protein kinase R, for example, can be disrupted in cells infected with JEV.[25]  Some viruses escape the anti-viral activities of interferons by gene (and thus protein) mutation.  The H5N1 influenza virus, also known as bird flu, has resistance to interferon and other anti-viral cytokines that is attributed to a single amino acid change in its Non-Structural Protein 1 (NS1), although the precise mechanism of how this confers immunity is unclear.[31]
 
CD8+ T-Cells release this Interferon Gamma. 
 
"CD8+ T cells (often called cytotoxic T lymphocytes, or CTLs) are very important for immune defence against intracellular pathogens, including viruses and bacteria, and for tumour surveillance. When a CD8+ T cell recognises its antigen and becomes activated, it has three major mechanisms to kill infected or malignant cells. The first is secretion of cytokines, primarily TNF-α and IFN-γ, which have anti-tumour and anti-viral microbial effects.
 
 
"When applied to warts, SADBE is believed to incite a T-cell response and to induce the killing of virally infected cells by cytotoxic lymphocytes. This influx of lymphocytes into lesional tissue may also enhance the recognition and processing of viral antigens, leading to clonal expansion of effector cells. It is hoped that SADBE will reduce the frequency and severity of herpes labialis outbreaks through these mechanisms.
 
 
I attempted to treat myself with Imiquimod 5% several weeks prior to using SADBE and all is does it attempt to gets the cells to secrete the Interferon Alpha. It didn't work. I had no improvement, but did have an immune response. So I am led to believe the SADBE has more todo with CD8+ T-Cells then the interferon release by the area cells ( I think blocked by HSV). 
 
I agree the dosage and frequency has a lot todo with SADBE effectiveness. 
 
"These results are consistent with, and tend to confirm, the results of the prior clinical trial that showed a single topical application of 2% SADBE to the arm delayed next cold sore outbreak in persons with frequent cold sores.9 SADBE apparently takes more than 2 weeks to exert its effects on the immune system. The changes in both PBMC proliferation and immune gene expression were greater at 8 weeks after drug application than at 2 weeks after drug application. Interestingly, in the clinical trial there was also a suggestion in the data that SADBE did not exert its effect until more than about 3 weeks after drug application.9
 
 
DAY 3 Update**
First 24 hours after application: I had a fever overnight and slept a lot. Virus very active and applying creams etc. 
Day 2-3: I feel tremendously better in terms of virus itch and spread. Stopping cream use, also stopping Famciclovir as I dont think it works. I think the CD8+ cells are active and more have migrated to area and are producing IFNG now. 
I think the treatment is working and expect recovery to take a week or so. I also expect that the IFGN levels will increase for the next 8 weeks before reaching peak. 
 
 
Edited by JDMT_176
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Day 8 Update ***

So far OB is nearly gone, 90 day chronic event where no level of Valacyclovir or Famciclovir had any effect on. 

I have stopped anti-virals. 

SADBE appears to be very effective. 

I had an unrelated stomach virus hit during the first week which caused me to go to ER. I had a CHEM test. Results could be influenced by that virus as I had fever and huge immune response, but:

  • Immunoglobulin Gramms ABS was HIGH
  • Neutrophil granulocyte ABS was HIGH
  • Lymphocyte ABS was LOW
  • Albumin was HIGH

So I couldnt make a determination if related to SADBE. 

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11 hours ago, JDMT_176 said:

Day 8 Update ***

So far OB is nearly gone, 90 day chronic event where no level of Valacyclovir or Famciclovir had any effect on. 

I have stopped anti-virals. 

SADBE appears to be very effective. 

I had an unrelated stomach virus hit during the first week which caused me to go to ER. I had a CHEM test. Results could be influenced by that virus as I had fever and huge immune response, but:

  • Immunoglobulin Gramms ABS was HIGH
  • Neutrophil granulocyte ABS was HIGH
  • Lymphocyte ABS was LOW
  • Albumin was HIGH

So I couldnt make a determination if related to SADBE. 

What is SADBE if you don't mind

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ZealousidealAide7

Hi. I am a long time sufferer and am really excited to try SADBE because the anecdotal reviews have been great. The link that was posted on alibaba no longer works, and the only stuff I found was powder form. Not sure if that is what I should be getting? Anyone that knows how I can buy some online, please let me know :)

Ideally, I would like it prescribed by a Dr in the US. Has anyone been able to pull this off? If so, how? I am frustrated because it seems like there is this great treatment out there but it is just out of my reach. Thank you for the help!

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1 hour ago, ZealousidealAide7 said:

Hi. I am a long time sufferer and am really excited to try SADBE because the anecdotal reviews have been great. The link that was posted on alibaba no longer works, and the only stuff I found was powder form. Not sure if that is what I should be getting? Anyone that knows how I can buy some online, please let me know :)

Ideally, I would like it prescribed by a Dr in the US. Has anyone been able to pull this off? If so, how? I am frustrated because it seems like there is this great treatment out there but it is just out of my reach. Thank you for the help!

It was pulled from alibaba and it was liquid not powder...I don't know how the powder would work. I would print off all the squarex studies and take them to a dermatologist until you find one that will write the script....Maybe start by calling first and making sure they are familiar with squaric acid.

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ZealousidealAide7

Thanks for getting back to me. I see you ordered the 2% from the pharmacist in Turkey, but you are convinced it didn't work? That would be the easiest option for me, as I wont be in the US for awhile. 

Do you think the pharmacy did not actually send you 2% SADBE?

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1 hour ago, ZealousidealAide7 said:

Thanks for getting back to me. I see you ordered the 2% from the pharmacist in Turkey, but you are convinced it didn't work? That would be the easiest option for me, as I wont be in the US for awhile. 

Do you think the pharmacy did not actually send you 2% SADBE?

Based on my experience with the real stuff I doubt there was even any SADBE in the stuff from Turkey to be honest with you. I use this relatively of course but SADBE can actually be kind of dangerous even at 2% and the way I covered  my arm in the stuff from Turkey several times had it been real I would’ve had one hell of a reaction…You need to be careful with SADBE…

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I don’t unfortunately. Just Google… Based on the first time I ordered it was a 5 g bottle for about $125… And it’s kind of a thick yellow liquid… If I determine that it will work for me again I’m going to just start going through doctors again until I find one that will write a prescription from a compounding pharmacy.If you do get it and dilute it yourself I recommend the DMSO over acetone and I would also use the syringe method and put it in a small clear glass bottle so you can make sure your solution doesn’t evaporate…it should basically look like water…If you see the yellowing of the squaric acid  it’s too strong… Just some things that I found out the hard way ha ha

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ZealousidealAide7

 

5 minutes ago, Kurdt01 said:

I don’t unfortunately. Just Google… Based on the first time I ordered it was a 5 g bottle for about $125… And it’s kind of a thick yellow liquid… If I determine that it will work for me again I’m going to just start going through doctors again until I find one that will write a prescription from a compounding pharmacy.If you do get it and dilute it yourself I recommend the DMSO over acetone and I would also use the syringe method and put it in a small clear glass bottle so you can make sure your solution doesn’t evaporate…it should basically look like water…If you see the yellowing of the squaric acid  it’s too strong… Just some things that I found out the hard way ha ha

Okay cool thanks. This seems way to complicated to do on my own, but maybe I can handle it. A Dr would be much easier lol

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It’s easier than it sounds if you learn from my mistakes ha ha

Based on my first experience it is more than worth the trouble… Hopefully that wasn’t a one time thing… Still to be determined unfortunately.

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ZealousidealAide7
20 minutes ago, Kurdt01 said:

It’s easier than it sounds if you learn from my mistakes ha ha

Based on my first experience it is more than worth the trouble… Hopefully that wasn’t a one time thing… Still to be determined unfortunately.

I may have to if I can find a DR to prescribe it. Thank you so much!

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You can order from Alibaba by searching the CAS number for it. Then request a quote. And only ask for 5g liquid (lifetime supply basically). $60 was quote from them, plus shipping (unknown $).

I ordered from different place to get faster, but can't say more. 

Order DMSO on Amazon. Its a safe dilution substance. Get insulin syringes and glass container to mix. Pretty simple. 

 

I had a 90 day long OB that maybe HSV-2, but not confirmed, only ended when SADBE treatment began. HSV-1 for 10-15 years, may have been re-exposed or something, was under control for years until now. 

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ZealousidealAide7
2 hours ago, JDMT_176 said:

You can order from Alibaba by searching the CAS number for it. Then request a quote. And only ask for 5g liquid (lifetime supply basically). $60 was quote from them, plus shipping (unknown $).

I ordered from different place to get faster, but can't say more. 

Order DMSO on Amazon. Its a safe dilution substance. Get insulin syringes and glass container to mix. Pretty simple. 

 

I had a 90 day long OB that maybe HSV-2, but not confirmed, only ended when SADBE treatment began. HSV-1 for 10-15 years, may have been re-exposed or something, was under control for years until now. 

Thank you so much! How can I find the CAS number?

Also, I saw how you mixed and applied it above. 

"I decided to use an insulin syringe and go with the 0.2 ml SADBE, and 10 mL DMSO to come to about 2% even though DMSO has a higher density of 1.19, then SADBE. From there I determined 3 drops of dilution is 0.20 mL or 20 mg. Im not 100% on this way of dilution as I only have a gram scale and no pipet system. But it does sound reasonable."

This makes sense to me. Would you recommend I do it this way as well?

 

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